The Top 10 Ways of Increasing Learner Interactivity & Engagement

Do your employee training programs lack interactivity and the ability to spark your learners’ interest? Has your company’s training ever failed to engage your employees? If you answered yes to either of these, this TLDCast will be a great resource for you!

Custom online learning solutions utilize a variety of innovative technologies, such as gamification and immersive scenarios, which Learning and Development professionals now realize is a great way to enhance training experiences for their learners.

These solutions allow for the ability to deliver content in an engaging way that allows employees to interact with the learning material, triggering actions or reactions in them to accomplish a task or form a decision.

From the personal connections made during the training experience, employees are able to retain information better and improve performance results.

To ensure your company’s training developments are successful and will keep your employees focused and involved, join Andrew Hughes from Designing Digitally to learn The Top 10 Ways to Increase Learner Interactivity & Engagement!

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Toddi Norum: Introducing The Parity Podcast

We are proud to announce a new TLDCast series by Toddi Norum called The Parity Podcast. This series will feature ideas, concepts, and stories focused on equality, especially in regards to status and pay. Discussions will be covering parity in organizational development, human resources, and learning and development.

Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion, or EDI, has many challenges in the workplace. This podcast will chronicle some of those challenges and tell the stories of practitioners and participants in our space that deal with EDI issues regularly.

Check out this report from the Ford Foundation that we gratefully share the EDI values below:

Equity seeks to ensure fair treatment, equality of opportunity, and fairness in access to information and resources for all. We believe this is only possible in an environment built on respect and dignity.

Diversity is the representation of all our varied identities and differences (race, ethnicity, gender, disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, national origin, tribe, caste, socio-economic status, thinking and communication styles, etc.), collectively and as individuals. We seek to use discussion to proactively engage, understand, and draw on a variety of perspectives. Our conversations are just one of the many ways we can find to create solutions for our challenges.

Inclusion builds a culture of belonging by actively inviting the contribution and participation of all people. We believe every person’s voice adds value, and we strive to create balance in the face of power differences. We believe that no one person can or should be called upon to represent an entire community.

This first TLDCast featured Toddi’s introduction to her series and guest Molly X’s experiences as an L&D professional working with the military. Be sure to tune in to future episodes!

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Jo Cook Case Study on The Lightbulb Moment CPD Series – hosted by Kristen Hayden Safdie

It always sounds much simpler than it is: Find an idea, build on it, execute on delivery, and reap the benefits.

In this TLDCast episode, Jo Cook, Founder of Lightbulb Moment, tells the story of how she and her brother Michael came up with the idea of their CPD Webinar series. The conversation was very straight-forward, with Jo detailing a variety of challenges she had in building this product. Discussions like this aren’t common; Jo is very articulate and transparent about the wins and losses, and overall, it’s a refreshing talk about building a business, and the work it takes to achieve success.

If you are at all building a product or service in the L&D space, this episode will be an excellent experience for you.


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Andrew Hughes: VR Case Studies, Trends, Benefits and What the Future Holds

The first consumer level VR systems were released in 2016. But three years later, VR still hasn’t quite hit mainstream success —- yet.

What does that mean for education and adult learning? Does the future of VR in Learning have any promise?

In our Wednesday, April 24, 2019 TLDCast, guest Andrew Hughes discussed the current state of VR technology and offered us samples of what is working in training and VR.

Below you’ll find links to the recording of his discussion, links to relevant information, as well as some of the sample videos Andrew shared, and a text transcript of the conversation.


VR Chop and Drop:

Chop and Drop Review:

Delta Airlines Virtual Reality:

American Airlines Virtual Reality:

Lowe’s Holoroom:

Virtual Virtual Reality:

Wave XR:

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Text Transcript:

Unknown Speaker 0:10
Good morning, everybody.

Unknown Speaker 0:19
Molly. Hey, Craig.

Luis Malbas 0:29
Welcome everybody, for coming into pod cast. This morning. We have our wonderful sponsor.

Unknown Speaker 0:42
getting some feedback here.

Unknown Speaker 0:46
And your Can you hear me okay?

Unknown Speaker 0:49
Yeah, can you guys hear me?

Luis Malbas 0:51
Yeah, I just had some feedback in there. So I’ll switch phones if I need to know a little bit.

Unknown Speaker 0:58
Morning everybody.

Unknown Speaker 1:00

Unknown Speaker 1:05
benefits a future.

Unknown Speaker 1:08

Unknown Speaker 1:11

Unknown Speaker 1:15
okay, there I got

Andrew Hughes 1:20
Yeah, I’m getting some technical feedback.

Let me know if it’s my maybe.

Unknown Speaker 1:33
Okay, can you hear me? Okay?

Unknown Speaker 1:36
Is that better, guys?

Andrew Hughes 1:39
I think that’s better.

Luis Malbas 1:44
It’s coming in from your side. Maybe once we

Unknown Speaker 1:46
will be 10 seconds. Okay Luis, you talk about? You started off and I will go see if I got another laptop.

Luis Malbas 1:55
Okay, sounds good. All right, everybody. So today, we actually do kind of have an idea end up with, with Andrew. Andrew from design digitally is absolutely an amazing simulated simulations developer. I’m sure you guys have you guys have seen him on cod cast. He’s been in at least a dozen times. And one of my favorite things to talk about. And I’ve talked about this on TLC cast in the past interview in a couple of years, with Marco for chatting

about VR and AR. And so today we’re going to be covering things like you know, VR trends, ways VR is being used most in the corporate environment, the benefits of VR, actual examples of like companies using VR successfully. We’ve got some some things on the agenda, like Lowes hollow room experiences, which sounds really exciting. And then of course, examples from designing digitally.

Unknown Speaker 2:53

Luis Malbas 2:54
guys, VR experiences that they’ve developed like, they’ve got a VR pizza video that we could share. And then of course, I don’t know if you guys have been to steam and seen the designing digitally chop and drop case study I mean, chop and drop game. And and then we’ve got an HR resource management, serious game case study that we can talk about. And so and good morning, Alina Dominica. Nice to see you. So you want to test it a little bit? Andrew, can we can you hear me? Can we hear you

see what we got going? Andrew had a little bit of trouble on the technical side this morning. So that’s why he’s in his conference room. with with with the overhead webcam. And so just so you guys have some background on why I like to be in these conversations like 2015, or

maybe early 2016, you know, getting an an HTC Vive and really kind of jumping into VR back then it was kind of in prep for, for our, for our actually the TL dc 16 conference. And that thing, that device absolutely just changed the way I looked at technology and just computing in general, it was absolutely amazing. I couldn’t get off of my HTC Vive for a while I was just in there all the time, just exploring. And this was three years ago. It is such an amazing experience. And

and so I’m just always excited to talk VR, you know, have I have a lot of experience with like being on Steam and just downloading game after game after game? And I kind of want to talk to, to to Andrew, a little bit about that two years. Are you there? I hear some audio?

Yes, yes. No, I guess. Okay, well, just to start you off, what I’m going to do is I’m going to paste in some links to, to some of designing digitally.

Unknown Speaker 5:03
Some of the resources that they have

Unknown Speaker 5:06
VR, providing resources.

Luis Malbas 5:09
So here is I hope it’s okay to share your VR pizza maker video.

Andrew Hughes 5:16
I actually, you know what, here’s what I’ll do. I’ll actually share my screen, I have it up.

Unknown Speaker 5:21

Andrew Hughes 5:22
guys, let’s see. And I know it’s hard to hear me guys, I apologize. My Computer decided to die about half an hour before this meeting. So I’m trying to do it in the conference room. And I’m trying to get another computer to login. But I know luis may have been talking about this. And I haven’t turned down because apparently there’s an echo. But here designing digitally, we’ve been doing these very cool VR experiences around a few things. Number one, what some of the most popular things that we’ve been doing VR experiences with our a lot of the hands on job roles or field training, whether they’re actually going out and doing these exercises, or whether it’s to make pizza or so on and so forth. And one of the major reasons we find this to be beneficial. A lot of our clients are in the restaurant or food industry. And what you may or may not know is they are required to throw out the food that they use when training the employees on how to make burgers, certain pizzas, so on and so forth. Well, that cost and that expense really adds up for the volume in which a company such as dominoes, or Pizza Hut, or any other large franchise organization has to do when they’re training all of these different employees. So what we were able to do is we have a price barrier that we all know about with the higher end HTC Vive and the Oculus Rift. So what we actually did is we started to develop out with the Oculus go, which is under $200, to allow us to build these learning experiences with an affordable hardware device. And so we’re currently working with a client, and we have what’s called pizza hero, where we’re actually you are in the VR experience learning how to make this particular company’s pizzas, and the processes and the steps, and so on and so forth. So I’ll kind of show you this just briefly. But you’re wearing the Oculus go VR headset, it is one controller. And it does give you kind of a walkthrough of what you’re supposed to do for this particular lesson. From here, anything like randomization of what you’re supposed to put down in the pizzas, and then it’s your responsibility to free range, actually, I develop out and build that pizza yourself in this VR space. So not only that, but we are going through those processes and confirming that you have done it correctly, based on the steps that we want you to do. And you can get a little ridiculous with it, if you would like. Again, we want it to be a little fun. Because it’s about learning the processes not necessarily being concerned if they make a mess, things like that.

From here, these types of and you’re just looking at one walkthrough of one type pizza. There are many games built outside of this, that are challenging them to make it harder and harder to complete. They have to complete the pizzas faster and faster. And they have to really start to know exactly what we’re what topics and how those are the replays and at what

temperature or what area on the actual oven do they go and how long.

And so by immersing them in doing this, they’re actually going to be able to experience it without that calm override of having to pay to throw away all that food or to utilize the food to train them on how to make these.

Luis Malbas 9:08
Wow, that is that is amazing. What a great idea. You know,

Andrew Hughes 9:14
looking at this, this is a low price point, because what I mean is not price quote from the development side, but we’re using something that we could actually afford now. So we can get these out to the masses, we can buy, you know, 100 of these and if not, absolutely break the bank and we don’t need to, you know, additional computers and plugs and so on and so forth. This is a self contained VR system.

Unknown Speaker 9:39
So wait, So Kendra, can you hear me okay?

Unknown Speaker 9:42
Yeah. Okay, so which VR system is this for? This is just for

Andrew Hughes 9:46
Oculus go. Give me just a second. I’ll show you guys.

Unknown Speaker 9:52
So this is for the

Unknown Speaker 9:53

Andrew Hughes 9:58
So the Oculus go is right here. Okay, and this one is the, like the mid range VR system. From Oculus, and it’s self contained. It’s basically a I, you know, free range could walk around and take it with you. I usually have it in my in my rolling back. But it’s a fully immersive 3d spatial, it’s not a video player, it doesn’t take your your phone in it. It’s all 3d spatial, just like the five or the Oculus Rift is just at a lower price points. And it has its own store, and has quite a few different games, there’s quite a few free games for you to play. You can set up virtual desktop, you can watch movies in there. One of the things I did just the other last month or so was I actually took it with me on a plane and watch the movie. It was really interesting, because I could watch that whole movie. And I’m sure everybody else thought I looked ridiculous. But um, I didn’t even know I was on a plane because I was in that immersive environment sitting on a couch watching Netflix.

Luis Malbas 11:11
Wow. So I wait. And that’s the one that’s $499

Andrew Hughes 11:15
Yeah, this is the one for $199. And it’s fully 3d spatial. It’s fully, you know, equivalent, I would say, obviously, the Vive in the rift or higher end when it comes to graphics quality. But this gives you that fully immersive 3d spatial, it is the step forward. for VR devices, it’s no longer just a video.

Unknown Speaker 11:38
Wow, that’s pretty

Andrew Hughes 11:40
multiplayer, too. So you can see it right here. It’s actually multiplayer. Um, so you and I can actually meet in here Luis connects to your Facebook account. And we could meet in here and play these games together, chat, watch a movie together, whenever we would like to do

it’s got better than a voice and 3d spatial sound into it. So it’s pretty incredible that these spatial sound even though you don’t have headphones on, you can hear everything in detail. And and it you know, if you hear something happened behind you, they have built it in. So it sounds like it’s coming from behind you even though you don’t have headphones on.

Luis Malbas 12:20
Wow, that is

really my

Andrew Hughes 12:22
opinion, this has been a leap ahead for VR devices. And so the other side of it is it’s not like steam. So one of the biggest differences as we may or may not know, the difference between the Android and the iOS or the Apple Store is Apple has a very strict process and screening process for their apps. Yeah, wow, Android is almost a free for all.

It’s the same type of way for the Oculus steam, it’s usually almost a free for all at this point, while Oculus be very selective on the actual games and the applications that you’ll be able to implement on to the go.

And the reason why is you can see here are them in pretty much order. In my opinion, yeah, this is pretty dead on right there, for the, you know, level of sophistication.

And so I don’t know this guy, but he was the first YouTube videos, wherever he is, you’re now famous.

But outside of that, what we’re finding is, you know, it has a single controller. And you can pair because it’s Bluetooth, you can pair keyboard, you compare

joysticks, you know, Bluetooth controllers, you compare whatever you want through Bluetooth to it. So it allows you to use different hardware, not just that

single device, but they are tricky. So you have to program them and map them together.

Luis Malbas 13:57
Wow. Have you just did you? Have you seen any organizations? Or have you been in any environments where things are like being used specifically for for training purposes, like, you know, I

Andrew Hughes 14:11
actually have, we’re working on a couple projects where we just had a electric company by

probably, I’d say, 300 of those, oh my gosh, wow. And they’re not going to be using them. But you know, in the perspective of the companies that, you know, we interact with, that’s a that’s a very, very, very small demographic and population. So as technology evolves, in the next couple of years, what we will see is we’ll see more and more of these become cheaper and cheaper. And one of the things that I think is fascinating in the go is they have what’s called Virtual Desktop, which basically is a large screen desktop. And I can Remote Desktop into my computer. And it’s pretty amazing, because I have the fullest largest screen to work on and I’ve ever had in my life.

Luis Malbas 15:05
Wow. And so you’re talking this is what the Oculus go with that?

Unknown Speaker 15:08

Andrew Hughes 15:11
So I can work VPN off of the Oculus go right onto my computer and see my desktop and full screen and work from it from there.

Unknown Speaker 15:20
That is pretty crazy. I

Andrew Hughes 15:24
have virtual desktop, I want to see if I can find it for you guys. Virtual Desktop.

Unknown Speaker 15:35
Right, here it is.

Andrew Hughes 15:41
So you can just log into your computer, and it looks just like this. And it’s your desktop.

And then if you have a Bluetooth keyboard already connected and Bluetooth mouse, and you basically just use it as your computer.

Unknown Speaker 15:59
Wow, that’s

Unknown Speaker 16:00
blowing your mind.

Luis Malbas 16:01
Yeah, that’s pretty amazing. I just did it. I just didn’t realize for $200 device that it would have that capability.

Andrew Hughes 16:09
Yeah, I’m Luis you’ve known me long enough, I keep an eye on this stuff pretty heavily. So every time a new device comes out that we feel may be able to push the industry. We’re on top of it trying to look to see you know, what its value will be and how it can actually help us.

Luis Malbas 16:30
Right, great. So why don’t we talk about that a little bit, just sort of one at some of the trends that you’re seeing as the prices dropping for these types of devices. And you’re seeing that it’s more and more widespread use, like what what are the trends you’re seeing when it comes to VR?

Andrew Hughes 16:44
Interesting. Okay, so I still see a large trend in AR just because one of the biggest things that I see with VR is we still have hardware that needs to be purchased, we still have to get people in into that experience, there’s a little bit of an orientation piece. Since people are more familiar with their phones, ar has really taken off because we can augment the data and information as we need. What I’m seeing is the RS, I’m seeing a lot of vocational and on the job training experiences being built. What I think is fascinating though, is I also see a lot of them that are just basically, you know, simulated experiences like this, when we can really take it and push it to the extreme. However, we all know corporate training doesn’t like to push things to the extreme. But what I do see is I see a lot more people being open to abstract conceptual ways of training people in VR, whether that’s, you know, learning how to conceptually fix a computer or learning how to become a better leader. We’ve also seen the need and request for coaching,

VR experiences based on looking at people’s body language and the way to handle them as managers. We’ve also seen quite a few different, you know, electrical mind working, Plumbing, Heating and Air, commercial, construction, anything, were there, the risk of someone’s body or somebody being hurt. This was really kind of accelerated that way.

Luis Malbas 18:34
It’s their particular vertical that is really taking on VR, more so than others. You know, that’s

Andrew Hughes 18:40
interesting, I get that question asked a lot. And there isn’t, one of the things I can tell you is one of the verticals, that’s not really looking at it is the banking industry. Because you know that it’s not really their their cup of tea. Some of you have worked at a credit union, you know how that is, and so on. What I do see is more

Unknown Speaker 19:04

Andrew Hughes 19:06
mining, gas and energy.

Companies like that, where they have people out oil, and those people that are out there that are risking their lives to do their job, this is a great barrier to a great way to stop the barrier for someone getting hurt. And so that’s what we’re seeing right now. And I’m sure as we see more case studies come out, we see more success stories from not just us, but other organizations, you’ll start to see more ways of adapting it. And, you know, some of them, I see some of the leadership, VR experiences I’ve seen are pretty fascinating. So I think we’re starting to push that that way. But it all depends on the actual meat of the business anyways. So you know, we can get a call today, a business need is a and then tomorrow the business needs be. And so we’re really just going to try to figure out what is going to be the best solution for them and not just push VR, because it’s cool that the other side of it is you can push it get a project. But that doesn’t mean it’s going to end up with some success, and if it’s not going to end up success, and why even do it.

Luis Malbas 20:21
Right. Right. So I want to just ask about this, like one of the things that, you know, when you were talking about, you know, like, say using it for people that like are, you know, sort of like risky sort of job situations, you know, like say firefighters are our, you know, emergency medical folks. Like, is there like being siloed off inside of kind of the virtual sort of headset? Is there move towards being you know, like having more experiences one on one experiences, like collaborative or team experiences within a virtual environment? You would mentioned something about that earlier. But

Andrew Hughes 21:02
yeah, go and that’s actually, it’s funny, you say that working on another one? I don’t think they haven’t ready, but we’re working on a VR experience. That’s actually a piggyback from a prior project that we did with the client over. Get that pizza in there.

Unknown Speaker 21:20

Andrew Hughes 21:23
Oh, I just lost my train of thought. Sorry, guys. Um, you know,

Luis Malbas 21:30
um, let’s turn off that. Can I turn off that screen share real quick, because maybe it’ll?

Unknown Speaker 21:35
Yeah, that’s probably why.

Luis Malbas 21:36
Okay, let me just close that video.

Unknown Speaker 21:39
I stop it here. I can stop there. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 21:44
You said you were working on something that was maybe more on the collaborative and social side? Yeah.

Andrew Hughes 21:50
So a couple years ago, we had a client who wanted to do a project with the Leap Motion device where we did sorting of

recycled material. And so they’ve come to us and said, you know, it’d be really cool if we do some of that in the VR experience, but we want to be able to integrate. So what we’ve done is we’ve gotten rid of the controllers for the Oculus

or the HTC Vive. So we’re controller list, and we integrated the Leap Motion. So now you’re going to be our experience, but you’re able to use your hands, which is far beyond what we’re able to do before.

So now all of a sudden, our hands will be available. We won’t have to have joysticks or controllers to do things. It really more of that immersive experience.

Luis Malbas 22:38
Wow. That’s that’s that’s really, really cool. I’m broadcasting

Andrew Hughes 22:42
from another window. I was like, What is going on?

Luis Malbas 22:45
That might be like the echo. I’m getting I have I have an echo.

Andrew Hughes 22:49
That might be it. Was it me the whole time? Because I’m a jerk. Right now. There’s no more echo. That’s how I got see this is amateur hour. This is the time where everybody gets a rip on me yet. Thanks, Craig.

Unknown Speaker 23:04
I know bro.

Unknown Speaker 23:07
Thank you,

Unknown Speaker 23:10
writer me from this place for so long. You know,

Luis Malbas 23:15
one of the things I wanted to sort of cover on this one that I think would be really interesting to just talk about. And I know I don’t know if I talked about this with Molly in the past, but I have with with some other folks is using virtual reality for like, say something like onboarding? Yeah. It’s to be a really big topic on in the TL DC circles. But like, have you seen it being used for that at all?

Andrew Hughes 23:36
Actually, you know, it’s funny as we actually did 360 video, which, to me, that’s not fully in VR, but you but you were able to do it because it was VR compatible, but it was built for the web browser. We did this for a large grocery company. And what it was is orientation of how to and where particular bursaries and things come in, when they come off the when they come in as pallets to the actual store, where do they go? How do they go? How do you stock? And what do you do, and we actually built those as 360 video experiences, where we went out and met with the training department, and then actually went into the store. And we set up the the free 60 cameras from recording all of that, so that they’re actually present the videos which are able to immersive Lee be there. And then we had, you know, actors and actresses, basically like Twilight Zone, but not you know, like, Hey, welcome, we’re going to show you how to do this now. So this is john. And you know, you’re in a 360 setting. So this is john. And John’s going to be showing you how to break down this palette. And then john would be doing that right then and there. And she’ll be talking to you standing there talking to you about it, basically, like they would in the actual orientation, like, watch him do it. And I’ll explain it to you. And then later on, after they got done with this orientation, overview of how to do that, they would actually go out and do it with those, say, a mentor, then they would be walking through after that with the mentor. So that was a really cool project. But that wasn’t fully like the VR headset. It can’t they could be in my opinion, I’ve always broken 3d, video and VR as two separate things. And I you and I had that conversation like I would go back to Samsung. And if I could, I would sue them for putting the word Samsung VR and that that headset? It should. Samsung 360 and got it over with it was a terrible marketing. It’s confused everyone and I blamed on Samsung. So you know,

Luis Malbas 25:38
Jenny just had a great question here. What is the benefit of doing that over just having people follow the process in the store?

Andrew Hughes 25:45
That’s a good question. Okay. So here’s one of the things that they found. One of the things that they realized is, if they’re able to provide it multiple times and have them do it multiple times, they’re going to remember it. So what they wanted do is familiarize them with it on a video before they actually came into the stores ensure that they already had a sense and an understanding how to do that. So when they went out into the stores, they were actually doing it with them. They’re not spending that additional time with the mentor walking them through it and doing it with them. They’re all right, you’ve already been shown how to do this, let’s see how well you’re doing. Let’s go. And they’re actually hitting the ground running and producing for this large grocery chain. They’re actually producing as new hires, not, you know, in my opinion, are not an asset to the company until the 90 days is over this company saying, hey, if we can expedite that by having them do this orientation, and a 360 experience, and they are told how to do it and what to do. So we get our lower levels of Bloom’s That way, when they actually walk in the door. And we have them go ahead and work with our mentor, we can actually have them go ahead and you know, break down these pallets and get the stuff in the store. So they’re doing doing the job right then and there rather than waiting and waiting and waiting to get that stuff done later on.

Luis Malbas 27:07
Right right now. That’s great. And she followed up with. So recall, retention consistency was part of the goal. And I yeah, I’d like to hear what are your thoughts on just that it specifically recall retention consistency? How is that like such a huge, you know, benefit for you know, using virtual reality?

Andrew Hughes 27:24
Well, my gosh, so this one’s a soapbox. So you’re going to be very careful with this one.

The only training that any corporation does, that is only just once his compliance training, because they have to show to the insurance companies that you guys have completed that in case of a violation of the general liability contract, which our company has to have, like everybody else. So our employees have to take compliance training to ensure if we do get sued that we’ve already covered all of that our basis with everyone that represents our company, outside of that compliance training. No human being has ever become an expert at anything by doing something once.

Unknown Speaker 28:15
End of story.

Unknown Speaker 28:17
Yeah. So I guess that GDPR training that I just took I I’m not an expert in that. So what you’re saying,

Andrew Hughes 28:25
Let me guess you’re gonna put a badge on LinkedIn and go ahead and say expert at the IP now. Yeah, that’s you.

It’s really true. I mean, look at any athlete, in any case, or any situation, any musician, any other form of real training, happens at a consistent pace, until you have built those neurological networks. And what your brain understands that can run those paths. You’ve learned that information, and your brain has now built it to remember that and to do it on call. Yeah, that doesn’t happen unless it’s consistent. And over a consistent period of time.

Unknown Speaker 29:07
That’s great. And is there

Andrew Hughes 29:09
no other work that way other than remembering?

Luis Malbas 29:12
Is there? Is there a particular Can you think of a success story right now as a training success story using virtual reality that you can give us?

Andrew Hughes 29:20
Oh, yeah, I’m, in our opinion, we have a few. First off, you guys have seen the Delta build. Delta has done an amazing job. Let me see if I can find the Delta Dr. Bill for you.

Not be a, that’s not going to be right. The Delta has put together an amazing Dr. Build, where what they did is they are orienting

Unknown Speaker 29:46
people to let me see if I can put it in Luis

Unknown Speaker 29:49
and you could share, buddy.

Andrew Hughes 29:51
Yeah. But Delta, what they did is they wanted to basically do orientation to flight attendants. And they wanted them to understand what to do it the plan, how to

manage and take care of the plane, inside the plane, and what to do, but they did not want to, you know, pull or have the facility in which they had a large plane sitting there, and which they can only do one or two people at a time. So what they’ve actually done is they’ve developed out a VR experience where you, they have all these different rooms, and each room is an empty training room. That open it up. I don’t know if that’s the right one. Open it right

Luis Malbas 30:27
now. So I’ve just got the

Andrew Hughes 30:31
WhatsApp, I’m getting it, I was getting super excited.

Unknown Speaker 30:34
Oh, here we go.

Unknown Speaker 30:38
And let me know where it goes. Okay. And I think I can actually

Unknown Speaker 30:48
hear the audio

Andrew Hughes 31:00
Oculus Rift. And they’ve taken the Oculus by

making these immersive experiences where you can be a stewardess or steward. And you were actually able to be trained on what to do and how to do it with inside of those planes and a immersive like experience.

Unknown Speaker 31:22
And so let me see if I can find the

Unknown Speaker 31:25
one I’m looking for it because that one was just a quick overview.

Andrew Hughes 31:30
Let me see out there it is mechanic crew. Sorry Luis

Here it is.

Unknown Speaker 31:38
Ma’am. Okay, let me bring that one up here.

Unknown Speaker 31:44
It’s like a movie almost.

Luis Malbas 31:47
Sorry, let me just full screen so you guys get the full effect and share.

Unknown Speaker 31:55
Share. There we go. Inside of the movie is super, super realistic, you’re able to like,

Unknown Speaker 32:01
touch and grab and hold on to things and not worried about hitting walls. I love it.

Unknown Speaker 32:07
The virtual reality is a result of a project that we started back in 2017. To really rewrite our entire new hire curriculum, we wanted to introduce some new technology will want it to take it from an instructor driven program to a learner driven program. We’re going to have you finishing up this lesson, please. It’s getting our flight attendants, the new hires a chance to get inside the aircraft and actually see it as a virtual setting. Yeah, go ahead, do your own challenge first. For me though, there are 12 rooms that are set up in the space that we have behind us. And those 12 rooms are linked to one, one integrated instructor station where an instructor can review 12 students at the same time. By increasing the number of students in the class at one time, we were able to reduce the number of months it took to train of number of flight attendants. So Miss Perez, we’re going to have you finishing up this lesson, please. And if you’d come on out, or having to max out on your time, the system is designed to translate students on how to open doors, how to open emergency exits, and how to pre check their emergency equipment on an aircraft, everything’s pretty self guided, it gives you a choice of airplane to use. Right now we have the 737 787,

Unknown Speaker 33:13
triple seven, and a 321 aircraft. I’m a very visual learner. So to be able to go into the aircraft and actually see the seats, see the overhead compartments, you can even open the laboratory doors and walk inside the lab, it really gives me a complete perspective of exactly what this aircraft looks like. We integrated a system that they can actually use their hands and reach and touch. And that was important for us, because we’re trying to build muscle memory with a lot of the door operations, they can open a door, if they can make errors like blow a slide, it’s reset at the push of one button. If they make an error, we can step them back one step in the process. And they can continually train over and over and over again. So they get a door, right? They prompt you and they let you like make mistakes without instructors or nervous students behind you, you are anxious, and then think of really helps the flight attendant put into their cognitive mind that one little mistake can make a huge error. And this lets them do that in that safe environment. It definitely does. Because we confidence go down to the field, I look at this as being something else for American and having us be the complete innovator. Once again, in the airline world, we’ve always known that American has a rich tradition of being the first and a lot of the things we do. And we’re very excited to announce that we are the first airline in the world to introduce virtual reality for our flight attendants.

Andrew Hughes 34:33
So I think that’s pretty fascinating, in my opinion, because again, looking at those cans on experiences. And if you guys noticed the fidelity of the 3d models, it wasn’t, you know, super hyper realistic for what they were doing on the hands on training, that necessarily is not does not need to be the case, it’s about the processes. Like we all know what a door handle looks like, if the door handle is gray or gold, that doesn’t matter subtly change our ability to open or close the door. And so a lot of times, we have to fight over fidelity and quality. So that’s another thing that people need to keep in mind is it’s about them actually doing what you want them to do in there and not necessarily how pretty it is. It can be pretty, but it doesn’t need to be pretty, pretty sick.

Luis Malbas 35:22
Yeah, it was interesting that both the both the the videos that you referenced were from from airlines or transportation, you can see like how that would really, really benefit that particular space.

Andrew Hughes 35:34
Oh, absolutely. And I think of, you know, all of those individuals that are working out in public works, those individuals that are working just in those highly stressful physical jobs and how this could really save them from hurting themselves, or even being able to train themselves and be safer. So that nothing happens in the future. Yeah,

Luis Malbas 36:05
yeah. I’d be interested to see if anybody in the audience has done any work like doing any development for like virtual reality or augmented reality spaces. It seems like when, you know, outside of maybe the guild event that does that. That’s a verte.

Yeah, the realities conference, I rarely run into folks that are actually building, building mixed realities for training. I think, you know, I know Molly does. But, you know, I like these examples, I would love to see these somewhere, you know, like to be able to actually look so that more people can can understand, you know, like, this is what is available. This is what people are actually doing, because I feel like I just don’t see that enough.

Andrew Hughes 36:51
Yeah, there’s this part, I think it’s a lot to do, like I said before about some of the hardware limitations. So when they are doing these, like, I can guarantee you’re looking at that American Airlines build that we just saw, I mean, you and I, both Luis you and I have talked hardware pricing before, you know, they’re probably 2500 per backpack right there, at least so you know, in my opinion, until they can get them down to the Oculus size, but give you the emotion tracking your hands, we’re going to be limited in that regard. That’s why in the beginning, I was like, you know, ar is still very popular because everyone has a phone and there’s no additional technology hardware that we need. So as we go forward, we’re going to see on as the technology decreases, you will see more and more examples of that. And for anybody, I just saw that Molly thank you for posting that Molly a military Luis you and I’ve had a conversation even with Brent about insect. And I’ve been insect many of times, they are light years ahead of us in the corporate training round when it comes to VR simulations, that kind of stuff. But you know, each one of their builds is millions of dollars, not 10s of thousands of dollars. So it’s a vastly different experience. And the reason why is, you know, their military, their simulations save lives? And in my opinion, I don’t know, if you have, you can put $1 amount on that.

Unknown Speaker 38:17
Right. Right.

Luis Malbas 38:19
So is that would that be an instance of like some of the most impressive builds that you’ve seen out there

Andrew Hughes 38:24
in the VR space in the simulated VR space? Absolutely. I absolutely, because they’re using some pretty flipped out stuff. Not only are they using the VR, but they’re using the ball, the hollow sphere ball, where you can run around like a hamster with a machine gun, you know, the machine guns got infrared that’s working within the 3d environment. And you can basically run your entire processes, your military processes for breaching a home or reaching an area with inside of a basically a large hamster wheel connected to a bunch of wires that’s connected to the headset that’s connected to the gun that you have, so that you can have this fully immersive environment. And they were doing that back in 2007. Hmm, oh, I was an insect. And they had the the hamster bond, which I got to do that back then. So, you know, they are lightyears ahead of us in that regard. But to get into that realm, you know, you’re you’re you, you’re messing with Lockheed and Boeing and Raytheon. Yeah. So they’ve been doing that a long time.

Luis Malbas 39:31
Yeah, yeah, they definitely got the, the the funds to be able to pull that stuff off. I know, I used to work in manufacturing, I used to work for a company that, that, that, that put together insulated glass for Windows, and these guys would like, you know, carry around, like these huge sheets of glass, you know, and load them into these machines, so they can glue the two pieces of glass together. And, you know, I used to do that work, I actually have the scars on my hands to prove it. And, and I always wish that like I could have had back then was, you know, for a dangerous job like that. Because if one of these panes of glass with just snapping your hands, and, you know, you were kind of just done for, you know, there was just such a Rick risk just getting trained for this stuff. But, you know, I could see like in manufacturing how, how virtual reality could be really, really beneficial to, to sort of risky jobs like that.

Andrew Hughes 40:29
We have one, we have one with a large healthcare company, to repair and ma MRI machine

is pretty fascinating to do. Yeah, yeah. You know,

those machines are millions of millions of dollars, I guess, send somebody out. And they had to train them hands on on those machines, this could save them a ton of money. And they can do that virtually, if they really wanted to, by mailing out a headset, and having them do that. And then, you know, make that their training, and then come in and do some hands on to kind of speed up that onboarding process.

Luis Malbas 41:07
Yeah, yeah, I’ve seen, you know, and along those same lines, just sort of, I’ve seen some really amazing sort of, like, augmented reality experiences for people that are in medicine, you know, oh, yeah. Yeah, just surgery, just the human body. And, you know, and so maybe just moving into that a little bit. You You had listed something about the Lowes hollow room experiences, what are those about?

Andrew Hughes 41:33
Okay, so for the light hollow room and hollow decks? Over that’s okay, so Lowes actually did, it’s really cool this innovation lab, where basically they’re teaching you customers, on how to install tile, and basically giving you this test drive of being able to do hands on projects with inside of this experience, with out, you know, doing it yourself and, and hurting yourself, or, you know, ruining your floors, things like that. Right. Now, the cool part is is, you know, they have, I’m saying if I can open up this video for you. Let me see if I can send you this video.

Luis Malbas 42:20
Is this something that you use with the hollow lens? Or is this an actual virtual fully VR experience.

Andrew Hughes 42:26
So it’s actually a fully Oculus Rift VR experience, and HTC Vive. And here, let me just show you.

They have it on Facebook. So I’ll just send you guys the link right now. And it’s super cool. Because you can depending on who you are, and what you’re interested in, you can actually if you got if you want to play that video, you can share. And what it is, is they have the ability for you to utilize gloves. And you basically you get to test out each one of their eight pieces of equipment virtually, to see how it works and holding tips and how to do particular things with particular devices at Lowes that you may not have used before. And so for many of you are

Unknown Speaker 43:18

Unknown Speaker 43:19
me turn that down. Okay.

Andrew Hughes 43:21
Go ahead. No, you’re fine.

How many of you have ever tile deployed first time you do it? Oh, that’s, you know. And so what we’ve, what they’ve done is build out this experience where you get to test each one of the equipment, see how it works. And then from there, give you a better understanding of what you can and can’t what you could and couldn’t do with each one of the hardware devices. They have a

Unknown Speaker 43:47
guided shaping and designing session.

Unknown Speaker 43:50
When I saw the hollow thing, I thought we were going to be working.

Andrew Hughes 43:54
Yeah, they they just came up with this virtual reality.

Unknown Speaker 44:02
controllers, features, controllers use attached machines. It’s really interesting, right? upwards of 10 AR and VR pilots.

Unknown Speaker 44:11
As soon as that they come talk to us, we’ll get rid of those controllers for

Unknown Speaker 44:17
VR experience. Wow. There’s no question. Virtual Reality reaches well beyond visualization. that lends itself to straight education solutions.

Andrew Hughes 44:27
And I know some of you were talking on, I think it was Mark or Molly or someone that had stated Oh, wait, it was Johnny about the chain song. And Luis you saw this, we came up with this couple years ago, we had a company that wanted to do a training simulation on how to cut down trees in a residential location. So what we ended up doing is building this for the vibe or Lyft and the Oculus go, and it’s gonna be our traffic drop. And it’s basically just a free forum for you to learn and to cut the tree on a residential location. But the actual training piece was built around the proper steps and procedures, those were actually cut out. And what we did is we asked for permission if we could put this on Steam as just a free VR experience. And this came out in August of 2017. So we launched this quite a while ago. And it’s free for anybody that wants to try it. And you can just download it on Steam. And if you got a VR headset, you can play it right then in there.

Luis Malbas 45:32
Yeah, it’s so cool. I actually have tried that. It’s really, really fun. It’s, it’s, it’s it’s a blast.

Andrew Hughes 45:40
I’ll tell you you know what the funny part is? We found all these. You know what I thought was

really funny as we went on, let me see if I can find it. There it is.

It’s really crazy to think like YouTubers, you know how they play video games, and then review them.

Drop and drop, which I thought was pretty crazy. So the YouTube video I just provided is somebody actually playing?

I don’t know what that one is. But let me find you a different one. Don’t put that one in. Oh,

Luis Malbas 46:26
it wasn’t a review.

Andrew Hughes 46:30
Yeah, there’s one here that I want to grab. Okay. Oh, yeah. Might be popped to review.

Unknown Speaker 46:37

Andrew Hughes 46:39
So yeah, there were quite a few different VR, our reviews, like people actually playing it. And then giving feedback almost like cutie pie. Thank God, it wasn’t created by them.

Unknown Speaker 46:53
Okay, here we go. Let me share this

Andrew Hughes 46:55
quite fascinating. It was, you know, had been playing and cutting and

enjoying doing it. And then there was somebody that, you know, they they had quite a few people that were that would do commentary, which was really funny. They’re like, Oh, whoops. It was hilarious. But I don’t know.

Luis Malbas 47:19
I love stuff like that.

Andrew Hughes 47:21
I thought about it was comical, because we were able to see as what everyone wants to see. Which is

do you actually have users interact with us? And you can see what the user experience was. So we were actually able to see that by these individuals doing that recording. Oh, that must be so

Unknown Speaker 47:45
yeah, that’s really, really helpful.

Andrew Hughes 47:48
Yeah, not the one of that guy was just talking about it, because I’ve never seen that one that I sent you guys. But outside of that, there’s a ton of these. Yeah, I don’t know what he was talking about. I’m not saying.

So there were.

And it just gave us a bigger perspective on what to do.

Unknown Speaker 48:14
In the future, for

Andrew Hughes 48:26
Here you go. Here’s our YouTube, YouTube guy. Boom.

Unknown Speaker 48:30

Andrew Hughes 48:32
Oh, yeah. We didn’t add hearing protection. Sorry, guys.

Unknown Speaker 48:39

Andrew Hughes 48:41
it was it was just it was interesting, in my opinion, because you got to see, gentlemen, I reflect back on what they thought on it.

Luis Malbas 48:50
Okay, let me just, oh, I ended up sorry, share that screen there. And look at this guy, such a serious look VR game

Unknown Speaker 49:00
here called a chop and drop VR, you are moving a little bucket, kind of like crane thing that you’re in to reach high up branches and trees, and you chop them down with a chainsaw. The game is totally free. So let’s play. Alright, so here I am in the game on this lovely streets ready to go.

Andrew Hughes 49:20
All those crazy things I didn’t know you got a 10. We don’t get to see this part of the learner.

Unknown Speaker 49:26
But I don’t think let’s just start

Andrew Hughes 49:29
with the feedback we get to see if they completed it or not. We don’t actually give you experience what they experienced.

Unknown Speaker 49:38
Oh, I did not know you can go higher and lower.

Andrew Hughes 49:41
So there’s an indicator for us. They didn’t even have any idea that go higher and lower. Yes, it is free user testing. Amazing, isn’t it?

Unknown Speaker 49:49
Yeah, no, that is really, really, really cool.

Andrew Hughes 49:53
So you just the one thing I tell our team is you never know where your your stuff will end up. Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker 50:00
Then you gotta cut with the lines are.

Luis Malbas 50:01
All right. So let’s see, I’ve got about five, six minutes left. And I want to talk about the future of VR, as you see it.

Oh, and the future of VR and learning in particular, of course. I mean, give us the Andrew us take on what’s going to be happening in the next year, the next three years, the next five years? What do you see?

Andrew Hughes 50:22
Whoo, good question. Well, first off, we’re seeing new Oculus, Oculus and HTC Vive are coming out with new devices here. So we want to keep an eye on those because as we see, within the next two years, in my opinion, price points will get down, you’ll see probably two iterations of oculus coming. And when those come, they will be cheaper and cheaper. Looking at what I have heard and what I’m looking at it, as you know, they’re trying to get something under $100 that we can use on a daily basis. They’re trying to basically make the act of this going other Oculus experiences outside of their high end by to be equivalent to the Google Chrome books. That way they can be a household device. And that’s really what Oculus is pushing for. HTC is trying to do the same thing. But you know, Oculus was the first to hit the ground running with the go. And you’re also going to see, you know, they have the rift s coming out, which is the higher end version of a risk for anybody that hasn’t seen that yet, which is going to give even more quality and fidelity. And so you’re going to see more adaptation as technology becomes cheaper and cheaper. In the next five years. In my opinion, I said this before, and I’m going to say it again, it drives me nuts that the cell phone is just with me, but not as a part of me. So I would love to be able to get rid of this and have it here. But I would also love to be able to figure out a way to utilize more of that virtual desktop like I talked to you about. I find myself staring at a screen all the time. And I find myself needing multiple screens. So in my opinion, I think we’re going to end up I hope we don’t in our cubicles with VR headsets on in 10 years. That would be amazing. But it would also be very sad because we’re already already looking down at our phones all the time. Yeah, so it’s just it’s scary Luis In my opinion, I think this is a excellent way for our society to go for training for learning purposes for safety. But I also think as a society, it pushes us closer and closer to isolation from each other. And for some odd reason, that’s what we’ve done in society. Anyways, we went from our towns or communities to our neighborhoods, where our streets, to our houses, and now to our tablets to our phones, and soon we’ll just be have something chapter heads. Yeah, I’m not thinking scary, guys. But, you know, that’s, that’s my anticipation. Wow.

Luis Malbas 53:03
Yeah, no, I and in fact, I personally, sort of, you know, just, uh, you know, and this is kind of like a side note, I’m trying to really try to get away from the screen as much as I can. I mean, I sit in front of one basically, for at least 10 hours a day. But you know, as you know, you know, just that family life, you want to be kind of present there for, you know, for those, those two beautiful boys that you have, you know, you just want to

see enough of like that they can at least see your eyes here in there, you know?

Unknown Speaker 53:32

Unknown Speaker 53:34
Yeah, no, it’s just yeah.

Andrew Hughes 53:36
You already know this. Unfortunately, if you’re going to try to see me if you try to email me or see me, during the day, it’s not going to happen. And you’re probably not going to see me on social media during the day. because of that reason, I’m trying to run the operations of the company on top of my little guys.

Unknown Speaker 53:55

Andrew Hughes 53:57
on top of, I’m still following. I’m still teaching on the line. So yeah.

Luis Malbas 54:04
So do you think that’s one of the big blocks? I mean, what was one of the biggest challenges that like, you know, mixed realities has? And just the fact that it can you end up getting isolated so much?

Unknown Speaker 54:17
I think.

Andrew Hughes 54:19
I think we’re doing that as a society as a whole. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 54:22
yeah. No, that’s a really good, I think,

Andrew Hughes 54:24
I think I think we, you Luis you and I had this conversation. And this is getting very philosophical, which, you know,

because I love looking at the psychology of humans and, and structures and that, and, in my opinion, you know, the media and our society is scared us into our homes. And we’re now addicted to our phones, which now we have this friendships that aren’t physical. And we’re not really all there in our physical environment. So VR, actually, I hate to say it lends itself to adapt to that pretty quickly. The history is the technical hardware and the hindrance of getting people into that space, when they aren’t as familiar. So when you see a large scale adaptation of what they’re trying to do with the Oculus go across society as a whole. It won’t be adapted as fast as let’s say, AR, or, you know, phone apps or things like that.

Luis Malbas 55:22
Right. That’s really, really, I you know, I have to say that even for me when I get on the vibe nowadays, I mean, I know that there’s a period of time where I was really into like, say, Space Pirate trainer, and yeah, that’s the other one that came with the beats. I can’t remember. You’re just, you’ve got the lightsabers. I can’t remember that. Let’s go. Yeah. Oh,

Andrew Hughes 55:44
yeah. I’m like a flat. Yeah. But Guitar Hero,

Luis Malbas 55:49
when I now when I turned it on, I like to go into, like, say, I go into the the Google Earth, you know,

simulation, and I end up like going out to the desert. And just like, sitting there like at sunset and just looking around, like, those are kind of my favorite experiences. And then I don’t know what that exactly says about my relationship to, you know,

to simulations, or even to stimulation nowadays. But that tends to be my, you know, the choice I have now. It’s like when I get in there. I just like to go somewhere where I can chill out.

Andrew Hughes 56:26
Which is ironic considering you live in California, and I’m in Ohio and the work day in California is better than the nice day in Ohio.

Luis Malbas 56:35
Oh, man, you should be here nowadays. It’s absolutely amazing right now.

Andrew Hughes 56:41
I actually will be I’ll be there.

I’m heading up the learner Palooza next week in Seattle. Oh, nice. And then I have to come to LA over the weekend. So next weekend. Awesome.

Unknown Speaker 56:56
So yeah, we’re work related.

Unknown Speaker 57:00
Yeah. Nice. Okay, man, well,

Andrew Hughes 57:04
that’s gaming play virtual virtual reality. I posted the link. If you guys do have a VR headset. The reason why is virtual virtual reality, you’re basically a worker for the machines instead of the machines working for you. And you have to get jobs and you’re basically like this captain’s worker for the machines and your job is to make the machines happy. And at the same time, you’re trying to figure out how to break out of the place. And it is amazing. The story alone blows my mind.

Luis Malbas 57:42
Okay, who can you play it on? Ours? Do you need like a Fiverr riff

Andrew Hughes 57:47
you played on the girl you played on the vibe? You can play it on the Rift, whatever you want to play it on. You can’t play it on the samsung VR because that’s not real.

Unknown Speaker 57:59
All right, I want to put in my favorite one to the wave. Oh, it’s called. Yeah,

Andrew Hughes 58:03
way be our sweet.

Luis Malbas 58:06
Yeah, I love going in there. It’s kind of I mean, it’s a little psychedelic, but I don’t know. It’s It’s, it’s, it’s super fun. You know,

Unknown Speaker 58:15
I love that stuff.

Luis Malbas 58:18
Andrew, thank you so much for sharing today with us. I always love talking to you. You’re one of the coolest people I know, and probably the coolest person in l&d

Andrew Hughes 58:29
ever, but you’re making me blush you can’t even barely see me

Luis Malbas 58:33
know my thing right now by saying that. But I just wanna say thank you again for everything. And thank you for your support with with TL DC. We just love having you. And I’m looking forward to talking to you again next month. And we’ll push all this stuff out. Get some conversations about this is actually like,

it’s given me some I want to activate some of the ideas that I you know, through this conversation

Unknown Speaker 58:57
will keep talking.

Andrew Hughes 58:59
Yeah, thank you guys. Sorry about the audio. My apologies. And sorry about the computer. I have, I’m over to so now I got.

Yep. So thank you. And sorry, guys, for all the hassle. If anybody has any questions or anything you can always give me shoot me an email at designing digitally calm. Also, I know, our research team has been doing quite a bit of work when it comes to infographics and white papers. So I’ll post a couple there. We’ve been working on the VR, white papers, infographics for the request of the industry, because again, they have the same situations where they’re trying to justify this. So there are some of those for you guys to take a look at the download. And thank you guys so much for your time today.

Luis Malbas 59:48
Absolutely. And just so y’all know, I’ve been doing more extensive sort of blog posts after each one of these broadcasts. And I’ll have all kinds of notes from this in that one, including all of the links that were posted in the chat. So, so keep an eye out for that. And thanks again, everybody. We’ll see you next time. We’ve got the big, we’ve got the competency model models playlist tomorrow. So make sure you’re registered for that. We’ve already got like 40 people or something registered for that. So

hopefully we’ll see you then. All right. Take care, everybody.

The Competency Models Playlist

Competency Models and L&D

Our Competency Models Playlist featured three guests: Rachel Weiss from Oscar Health Insurance, Erin Melvin from Lambda Solutions, and Host Toddi Norum.

The Playlist started with Rachel Weiss, who works with Competency Model frameworks by interpreting and building them around the L&D function. Rachel speaks to the importance of understanding the model architecture and why it’s important to the business. Then with her background as an L&D professional, measure competency and react to the results, and in turn furthering business goals.

Our second speaker, Erin Melvin, speaks to moving the model into the LMS. She discusses advantages of translating the competency models to the portals (LMS, HRIS) used by the business. And also discusses some best practices and potential gotchas.

Host Toddi Norum has recently been experiencing the implementation of Competency Models in her workplace, so this discussion is timely and an excellent primer for some current challenges she’s had.

This particular playlist is very suited for a podcast listen. Since there weren’t any shares, mostly discussion, it’s an excellent listening experience. However, transcripts and links to the original recording are listed below.

Podcast: Part 1

Podcast: Part 2

Session 1
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Session 2
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Transcript Session 1:

Toddi Norum 0:07
Good morning.

So welcome to TLDC this morning, I will give you a quick notice real quickly in case I drop off. It’s because I’m conserving bandwidth for our guests. And I definitely will interact with you guys in the chat box. Hi, Kara, how are you? So good morning, everybody. And as we know, sometimes our platform gives us fits. So in the interest of doing conserving bandwidth, I may just be the moderator and chat. So I am super excited today to have my guests.

So I just kind of a quick background, my own business has been doing some work in competency modeling and job architectures, which when I first encountered, I’m like, “what’s that?”

I really didn’t know what it was, how it can benefit the business, how to implement across the business, and I still don’t know as much about it, as I’d like to know. And again, it’s an topic of interest that I think a lot of us in our group really not really know that much about as well, although, I mean, it directly touches, learning and development. I mean, it gets implemented across our heads. So I think it’s a really important topic.

So we’re going to talk a little bit about that today, because I have two fabulous guests. And so I will speak first a little bit about the business impacts, and then also talk about implementation of it. So let me introduce my guests. And so ordinarily, in our playlist, oftentimes, we’ll split it into two, but we’re going to go ahead and wake up both guests in the window with us today, which is super cool, because they can talk to each other. And you guys can ask questions.

So we have Rachel Weiss and Rachel’s a customer obsessed, L&D superstar. I love that with a strong track record of creating and implementing large scale training programs worldwide. From strategy to execution management, she’s recognized for sharing best practices and driving high performance of partners around the globe. So welcome, Rachel, we’re really glad to have you.

And I hang on a second here. I’m looking for all of the rest of my notes.

Toddi Norum 2:11
But we also have Erin. Erin Melvin is actually, more focused on the implementation of systems and platforms across businesses. And so just she has a specialty in working with folks to take the competency modeling and architectures and spread those across the LM s and hrs platforms we all work with every day. So super cool. Can you guys hear me? Ok. I can hear you. Somebody wants to tell me in chat. If they can hear me then we’re all good. Echo. Thanks, Molly, OK, Echo Echo. So I’ll go on silent. So you guys don’t hear that. So anyway, I’m gonna go ahead and let Rachel start. And if you guys, you know, I have to refresh and jump back in, you’ll know what’s happening. But my guess I think we’re all good. So, Rachel, go ahead.

Rachel Weiss 2:56
Great. I’m so hey, it’s really nice to be here. Thanks for having me. talking a little bit about competency models and how they benefit the business. And so I I’ll keep an eye on the chat window. And Toddi, you can let me know too if there are any specific questions. Otherwise, I am just going to talk about what they are and how do we use them.

Ultimately, when we think about jobs, you know, the the competency model is not anything new. And it’s not anything necessarily groundbreaking. If you think about it, it really is kind of more common sense. Looking at what, you know, very specifically, what does this business need? I think that when we talk about job descriptions, and whatnot, in different businesses, there’s a lot of, of overlap and a lot of kind of generic language that happens.

And if you look at a specific business, when it comes to competency modeling, it’s really looking at what does this business need to be successful. And so it’s taking, you know, there are a lot of ways to do it, there’s some really long drawn out ways, which are, if a business has the time, it’s very valuable. But oftentimes, in our crazy world, the business won’t have the time, you know, to spend, say, nine months to a year really digging into every piece of it. And so sometimes, there’s got to be a little bit of a more rapid version that’s done. But ultimately, the the main, the main focus for this is really taking a look at:

what are the what are the most important success indicators for the business?

Where can we look at what people do that moves the business forward in different job function areas.

And so thinking about what I what I like to talk about with Competencies is really looking at workers in the business as whole people. So that, you know, instead of being able to say, you need to do this job function, this one thing, you know, we need someone who knows how to do this, X, Y, and Z, whatever functional, you know, pieces you need for that business, really looking more at a whole person.

It’s my philosophy anyway, and I think many others is that, you know, you can, we can train, you can train people on the functional aspect of doing the work for the business. But there are some things, some ways of being, I guess, if you think about these competency models, things like, you know, communication, which there can be some training for that. But the way that you look, the way we deal with conflict, you know, do we does somebody look at conflict as a healthy indicator of, you know, thought going on for the work, or is it something that people shy away from? There’s not going to be growth without conflict, we know that that’s how all good stories are right? Something has to happen to move it along. So ultimately, it’s it’s looking at, I’ve said, ultimately, a lot, I’ll try to stop that. It’s really looking at what what is the business need? And who are the types of people who are going to be most successful in the organization, so successful themselves for that development, but also obviously successful to move the business forward.

So that’s kind of general. Let’s see, I do see a question.

Methodology for creating a competency model?

So that that’s a great question. And I will say that my expertise really comes in the L&D piece of it of when I’ve worked with competency models before, the HR aspect of the business has really put that piece together. And my focus is, is that on the training components of it, I know that there are many different types of competency models out there. And so I don’t I see different ones being used, but I don’t have one that I particularly use, because I tend to come in after that’s been done and map out the L&D pieces of it. So not a great answer, because I don’t have a good answer for it. That’s where I fit in.

Okay, so Toddi, I don’t know if you’re still around if there are other questions.

I can keep going.

Toddi Norum 7:35
Okay, yes, I definitely hear

Hear me okay. All right. So, um, we talked a little bit about, you know, like, what it does for the business and kind of the things that you do?

Toddi Norum 7:49
How do we start, like with this whole process? So one of the things that, that I have had experience with this, I work with a group that about just, you know, kind of, for instance, we have a roughly around 4000 employees, we have around 3000 job titles, which, you know, like, That’s crazy. So, you know, what, what’s wrong with that? You know, why is it okay to have 3000 job titles? Why do we want to fine tune down our in our organization, what our job titles look like? And then to be able to align competencies that are very specifically associated with us? So would you want to speak to that a little bit?

Rachel Weiss 8:25
Sure. And it’s a great question, because I think if we look at

if we think about job, like career movement in the past, oftentimes, people really think like, if you’re not moving up, you’re not moving. And I think that we’ve, we’ve really gotten Oh, you know, in modern day workplaces, we’ve gotten past that you see a lot of benefits to, to working with different departments to moving laterally. So when we, if I think about a company with, I think you said like three or 4000 people and almost as many job titles. First off, I would say it clearly just dilutes what that job title means. And I would also argue that the more specific we get with job titles, it’s actually less almost less descriptive of what they’re doing. Because the job title that’s super focused like that is really in my mind, I think, focused around doing particular tasks. And competency modeling is really moving away from like, very specific tasks into more how do you approach the work? What do you need to do what makes you successful. And so I think that if I’m, you know, if I think about the new like, in my mind, a newer way of business where, for example, here, we’ve got a lot of moves that could be considered lateral, but in my mind, they’re not because you know, if you look at the job function, or a job title, there’s somewhat lateral, but there, the person going into that job is learning all new skill sets, all new tasks, different technology, all sorts of stuff. And so I think the benefits of having really clearer and

I wouldn’t necessarily say broader, but having a list of job titles that can kind of move throughout the business gives that flexibility and understanding of who can do what, so that if I in my department, if I want to start utilizing some subject matter experts are bringing some some people into the into my department who are going to really elevate our knowledge, our practices, some of the things that we do, I want to know where they’re already functioning in the department that they’re in. So having those more general job titles, not having as many job titles, as you have people to really just dilute the meaning of them allows us all to understand where people are. That’s one of the things I really like about competency models, is that, you know, you can build that the leveling within each competency framework, so to speak, but

but it should be something that can be moved around the business, because the business as a whole has said, these are the things that are important to us. For us to keep moving forward. We need to know that we are doing that we have the right people in the right places, and they’ve got the right skill sets and abilities to be successful in the business that the business environment that we’ve created here.

Unknown Speaker 11:29
I don’t know if that answers the question. I’m a little bit of a Rambler in the morning. So I apologize. This is a morning cast.

Toddi Norum 11:38
Well, so I mean, just, you know, part of what we do, and a lot of what we do is we talk, you know, stream of thought because we come here as experts, so totally fine.

That’s really important, because you’ll have a thought like, wait a minute, let me circle back to that. So okay.

Rachel Weiss 11:53
And I saw keras question. Yes, ultimately, that’s it. I have been involved with helping with that word helping the HR teams, putting those things together. But ultimately, it’s what does this mean for it from an l&d perspective for the business?

Toddi Norum 12:10
Yeah, and actually, what my experience is that it’s normally initiated by like, the talent development groups, which, you know, are usually housed in HR, you know, but it translates to talent management, talent management, talent acquisition, especially talent acquisition, you know, things like global setting pay, which I think is really interesting. And so, kind of the the trickle down effect of what happens when you perform a job architecture, I think it’s really fascinating. And I’m like, I’m just kind of been hammered by it, actually.

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s, that’s a big piece of it is, you know, I like the fact that you talked about not being specifically task based. But what does it take to get not just your job done, but the job of the team done? So it’s pretty interesting stuff.

Rachel Weiss 12:56
Sure. Yeah. And I noticed, question, another question here about what makes a framework and that is a good question. So framework, in my mind, is really all of the pieces that that you’re going to need to have in place to be able to move forward successfully with the competency model that you put together. So if we think about that, obviously, things like, you know, mapping out job roles, and that kind of stuff is important. But there’s a lot of other pieces that come in more on the HR side, but also for l&d in terms of, you know, training expectations, what’s the support that you’re going to give people in these roles? What is compensation look like? You know, if you’ve got a competency model, what do we reward? Where does the How do we determine success, you know, all of these things, these these behaviors that are that are required and rewarded from the business for doing good work, all of those things have to come into that framework. So it’s really being able to, to create a roadmap to say, the, this is what makes the business successful, here’s how we’re going to keep everybody kind of corralled into that successful space. And here’s how we’re going to continue to move them forward within that successful space. Because ultimately, if if we’re not, if we’re not successful within the business, we’re not moving the business forward. And I think it also, it also really does create for create a an energy and a

space for people to be happier and more comfortable at work because it is much clearer what is expected of you. You know, if I think about job descriptions, a lot of times it’s really focused on these are the the skills you need and the things you need to do to get this job done. But it doesn’t necessarily tell me how I’m going to be successful in the business as a whole. Because I would love to have someone who has amazing skills and is really just, you know, a shining star with the tasks that they complete. But if they’re not connected in with the the mission and the vision of the business, if they’re not connected in with our department, and what we feel is success. To be very honest, I don’t want that person that those the task and the skills is not enough. You know, it feels a little 21st century to me, you know, it’s just say this, but like really looking at that whole person in the workplace. Are you dialed into what is going to move the business forward? And I think that that’s, you know, thinking about l&d as strategic partnerships. Yes, I know, we’ve been in the 21st century for 19 years now. Thank you.

I just dated myself.

But, uh, so carefully.


Okay, lost my train of thought. But I see another question. So I’m just going to jump in on that. So jack says, How do I start creating a framework? And there’s nothing in place currently, currently? Great question. So to get started, I can tell you that it really looks like,

again, the what you do is going to depend on how much time you have on the top priorities of the business and whatnot. But if we’re looking at creating that framework, I would say, starting with high performers within the business, what are they, you know, it could be interviewing them, shadowing them, looking at the results of their work, but really looking at what what are the high performers? What competencies do they exhibit consistently? as well as what is?

What is most important for your business? Because there are a ton of competencies. I mean, if you think about like Lohman are there they, you know, identified 67 things? Well, I’m not going to make a competency framework for 67. seas, that’s really excessive. I think one thing, one place to start, if you’re looking for thinking about how to start would be looking at those looming or combat competencies, and picking, say, 1012, eight, you know, what are your top needs for the business right now. And I think the right now is important as well, because you’re, I would not recommend building a competency framework. And then, you know, that’s what we use for the next 20 years. Obviously, this is something that is going to shift as the business shifts. Even, you know, when I think about past roles I’ve had being and I was the last place I worked. I was there five years, and the l&d the competencies, the business in five years really shifted a lot. I’m seeing that where I am now as well. So it’s something that you have to continually, you know, I would say every six months, you’re taking a peek, but really every year, does this still describe who we are. So I would start with some of those, those basic competencies that have already been identified as success indicators for business, and then looking at, which are the ones that are most key right now to move the business forward from where it is right now to where you’ve identified you might want to be and looking at to what are the what, when you think about the workforce? What are the strengths? And what are the biggest areas of opportunity, you know, in determining where where you want to make that movement, because it’s important to say, to be able to really say, yes, this is what success looks like, or sorry, the opposite. This is what this is what we’re seeing now. And this is what we want to move toward. But I think rewarding. What works really well is important, too. And so thinking about

what is what is going to be most important for the business in that time, I see that I get sidetracked by these. See that I’m Daniel said at Apple, they did case studies to understand those competencies that most successful managers had in common. That’s a really great way to start. I agree with Kara that those can often take a ton of time. If you don’t have that time though, even just looking at some some, you know, doing some roundtables, with with your team and figuring out in a more just in a in a quicker and casual way, but being able to see what are some of those things? I see other stuff people are mentioning here.

Totally thrown out.

Okay, anyway, I’ve talked a lot, I don’t know if there are other questions we have. Or if we want to engage with Aaron as well.

Erin Melvin 19:42
I wouldn’t mind saying a couple things to that, because one of the things that. So I don’t develop the competencies either. But I work with companies that do and quite often what they’ll do, and I see this very common is they’ll hire competency consultant. And so I see some people on board that say have

Toddi Norum 20:02
there certified in these sort of methodologies. And they’ll go and find somebody who’s done that and bring them on for the building of it. Because for somebody who’s outside of it to start doing that, it’s kind of a big task to sort of learn it, and it be probably easy to get into the weeds and then you’re in this like really complex thing. And it could be a really overwhelming. So if you have somebody from an external place, I mean, a lot of the people that I work with is either health and safety or occupation and industry. And so they’ll need something in that realm. So have it hiring somebody to help you do that is really useful. And also I think that to to take into what Rachel was saying, I think it’s really important to talk to the people I know, that’s really time consuming. But the advice that I keep coming up with over and over again, is go talk to the stakeholders, go talk to the people who are doing the job. And as Rachel said, the high performer, so you want the people who are, you know, you want a mere, that’s more, so you want to find out what they’re doing, but you need buy in from the people as well. And so the way to get that buy in and the desire to aspire to train into those competencies, then you need to ask them what they want as well. And the business. So in the business world, so there’s a lot of people to talk to you to ensure that you’re getting this going correctly. So yeah, I agree with what I see here.

Yeah, so I think it’s a really, it’s a really key thing that we should understand. Because there’s the monster science project for any organization to undertake. And, you know, the, the point at which you start to create this framework is, you know, like, literally, as you say, getting to buy into the business and talking to the experts and whatnot. So, I mean, how do we how do we kind of define the start of that framework? I saw that that was one of our questions on there, too, is, you know, what really makes up that framework, like, you know, hair, kind of from a mechanic’s standpoint, you know, how are we how are we going about doing this? I think that’s, that’s one of the Phaedra calm the dark art

is probably true, but how do we how do we do that? I mean, I just, you know, aside from having those conversations, how does a lie now?

Rachel Weiss 22:14
Okay. I think that, for me, when I, as I said, I have not been the one who has built the who was, you know, building it, I have been involved in it. For me, it’s it was it’s more my role is more around looking at the the leveling aspect of the competencies. And so that actually kind of connects in with a question I saw here from Eileen about measuring success against the rubric. I think that you know, what I would recommend? It sounds like actually, we’ve got people on the, the,

the chat who have more experience with actually starting to build this than I do. So keep me honest here. But I think that, uh, you know, again, figuring out so looking at those competencies, I think the first step is to Aaron’s point is just talking to the people just saying, you know, finding, finding, what is success? Who are those top performers, then that map out against what we consider success to be? and asking them a ton of questions, you know, getting into how do they deal with things? How do they respond to things? What are their thoughts about certain scenarios that you can really map out? The looking at, you know, this really long list of competencies to say, Okay, what are the what are the top ones that are the most important to move our business forward? And then from there, I think it’s looking at if we’re talking about a true framework, does our does our l&d align with that, you know, if we’re saying that these are the top competencies as a business? Are we developing people that way? If if we if we say as a business, we want these types of people that are l&d efforts don’t mirror that. That, you know,

it’s kind of a little bit of a disaster, what’s going to happen there, we’re not actually setting people up for success, or really showing people that there’s a pathway to success, that you don’t have to come in with everything we’re going to help. Right. So my my focus is really more on that l&d piece. And so it certainly makes sure that l&d matches, or supports, at least, what you’ve said, is the most important business competencies for these roles. And then I would look at the reward structure, you know, are we are there?

We say that these are the things that we value the most, does our reward structure mirror that as well, you know, it’s, I think a lot of the concept of the framework is really just making sure that all of your ducks are in a row that all of everything lines up to create one very clear path forward towards success.

Erin Melvin 24:50
Yeah. And, you know,

Toddi Norum 24:52
I’ll add something to that as well to his competency framework. And in the way I think we’re talking about it here is, is a company culture that you’re building, I really see it as kind of a backbone. And earlier, it was saying, like, the more I The more I think about this and talk about it, the more I like it, because it’s exciting. And you’re building a structure for your company. That’s either leadership, this is how our leaders are. And this is how you are in this role. So you might have a leadership competency set, you may have a technical competency, so each role has specific jobs, or tasks or skills that they need to do. And so you’re building that into the company, and then it becomes a mode of communication, either between employee and manager, but also between like, recruitment, we were talking about that earlier. So how do you want to recruit people, these are the things that are important to us. And so earlier is, as Rachel was saying, and I really agree with this is that you might have somebody who’s a shining star, but they don’t fit into that sort of leadership or company or organizational competency set. They’re not a fit. And so we need to take a look at that. So it’s a way of either matching people when you’re bringing them in, or getting people to be in the right space while they’re in there and giving them something to aspire to. So when you’re thinking about that building a company competency framework has a beginning, step back and ask a high senior management level, what do we want to do with this? What is our goal with this because it is a big project. And it’s a worthwhile project. But you if you don’t have that high goal, like what is my outcome? In five years, we’ve built this, we want to be here that aim towards that and then build your competency framework in that direction. I think that’s my thinking.

Yeah. Can you hear me? Okay?

Unknown Speaker 26:45

Toddi Norum 26:45
yes. So one of the things that will fascinates me about this activity in particular is how you can take what you build as a framework for maybe one business area, one business unit, maybe its sales, maybe it’s, you know, support, then translate that to another organization, because you’ve really built like these core competencies that have, you know, specific skill sets and needs that help you hire. I mean, I just That to me is like, like creating that template that allows you to leverage what you gained across all the other organization or business units in your in your group. And I just, you know, I think that’s an interesting topic. Because want to speak to that a little bit. And actually, just letting you know, we actually have a ton of questions in the question queue down here as well. So we can jump in there.

But yeah, go ahead, we may have answered some of those already.

I might start by answering that just by saying that, it’s, it’s probably wise to start with a small group. So pick one that’s either most urgent or most willing, if this is a new project. And just in that sense of you know, with working with technology is MVP, even start with something small and test sit out, do a pilot, because you’ll find out a lot of things when you do that. And you might want to adjust and before you set things in stone, which we don’t really do anymore, but because we have to keep moving, as Rachel had mentioned earlier, which I think is really important. But it’s to test that out, and then see how you do it. The other part of that is I think of competencies is a tool of communication. And so once that’s been successful, or once you’ve got that, you need some kind of level of internal marketing, or communication to let the organization know that we’re heading in this direction. This is some of the results that we’ve gotten from this team, hurrah. You know, like, build it up, get marketing involved in that. And then you know, you’ve got buy in and then maybe even ask, Hey, I want to do this. And then you start with the next team. And I think that becomes both an organic and structured ways that can fit together as you build forward. And, again, I’m gonna go back to that buyer, because that becomes more and more important. originals mentioned this, and in my research and work with us, what I see is, we don’t want to sort of like push things down onto people anymore, the workplace has really changed, we want people to reach up and grab. And so when you’ve got good internal communication, and people and by and people are going to say, hey, I want to try that out, because I want to learn these skills, and I want to get on that program. And I want to grow as an employee. That’s the ideal situation where you’ve got people reaching out for it. So I think it’s a, you really have to kind of like massage your people into enjoying this process, or they’ll feel that they’ve been put on. And this might not be successful, as successful as you want. But it’s over, do you think, I

Rachel Weiss 29:43
totally agree, by and I think is always key. And I think that to one of the ways to work that I love that massage your people?

get them excited about it. I think that one of the ways to do that is really to take a look at what does this mean for you? I mean, we’re all into, you know, what does this mean for me? So one of the things that it means is really that a clear idea of who you are, how you embody the culture of this workplace? And why, to Tony’s point, in terms of thinking about moving around, I mean, why any department in this business would want to work with you would want to have you here, you know, it, it actually, I think really makes it makes people more marketable, even just within you know, within the business, because everyone’s kind of speaking that same language of what success looks like of what, what it means to say, yes, you know, this person is functioning at the level that we need them right now for this role. And so it’s an easier map to say, you know, more so than I think when I think more task based of like, you know, I, I completed five learnings and they got good reviews, well, now I completed 70 learnings and they got reviews and nine new, you know, that that’s not necessarily our benchmark for how you’re progressing within a role, you know, that output? Isn’t the measure of that it is that are you? Are you embodying what we want this company to be, and doing things well? How does that actually are? And I would love to know, from you how, you know, Todd, he was talking about at the beginning, how this maps into like, an lm s, or an HR is what are like the technical implications, because that is completely foreign to me. You know, so like, how does that connect? And I would love to know,

Toddi Norum 31:34
yeah, you know what, I’m going to step back? And I’ll answer that question. But I want to step back a little bit, because I do believe that competencies, and setting up competency framework is a long view big projects. And it’s worthwhile. But I think, again, going back to senior management, is this something that we want to do? Like, where are we going to be in five years around this? And if there’s a goal that fits there, then go forth and do this project? Because I think it’s worthwhile. And a part of that initial conversation is asking yourself, what technologies do we have on board? And what Where can we put this and so I mostly work with learning management system that has an HR component. And so our clients who use that the HR component of our learning management system, because it’s an enterprise solution, will pick up the competencies because they see it as a whole and, and what they’re using their learning management system for largely would be internal training at that level, so know your technology. So earlier, I was talking about having a competency consultant to assist. That’s a very common element that I’ve been working with. And then you have your technology consultant, which is me at our company. And still, they’ll say, Hey, we want to set up competencies and all set up a series of calls with them and go through what they’re doing. I want to really say I think that it’s smart to know your technology before you start on your projects. Because Because my work is largely an implementation, I see a couple different scenarios happening. One is people come in with a setup idea. And then they arrive and they see the technology and they’re like, I want it to do this. And I have to sit there in that uncomfortable space sometimes ago. Well, currently, we can do this. If you know and in technology, we often say with time and money, you can do anything. But how much time and money do you want to invest in new technology, building new technology, or acquiring new technology? Or are you willing at this time to phase out and, and just know that today, we can do this next year, if we invest x and time, we can make this happen as well. So know your outcomes in a vague sense, know your technology, and then start to build into it. So that’s the Vegas high level of planning this out and get that technology consultant involved and possible, get them on the line with your competency consultants, so they can talk that language, and then you’ve got the organization. So it’s almost a party of three, that you’re getting together to make that happen. And then you can start crafting your framework in a way that fits the technology that you currently have. Or you can go shopping for technology that suits your requirements.

With that, I also want you to think about, again, it’s always the end goal, start with the end in mind, what are you trying to achieve at the end? And how are you going to get to that space, because again, I see a lot of people getting caught up in the weeds over here in the middle. And I think sometimes my job is to be like, that’s great. Let’s put that in the parking lot and talk about it next year. Because right now we need to stay focused on getting this launched out.

So the technology that I work with, and I’ll speak with it vaguely cuz i think it’s it’s pretty standard. But you’ll have like a competency framework where you can have parent and child competency. And so when we were talking about framework earlier, I see this is very common. So you might have leadership, leadership may have five major components. But under each particular component, there’s five more. So you can have a parent competency, and then you can have your child’s competencies, and each one of those may go to a third level. I like I like I think earlier, Rachel had mentioned keep it simple in that sense, don’t go for 67 go for 10. Like pot, try something that’s manageable at the beginning, if you want to grow, grow, move into it. So then you’ve got these competencies, and you can set up the idea where if I want to be competent in this one main competency, I need to complete all five of these to make that happen. And so that is sort of like it aggregates into that completion.

Another part of that, so you’ve got the framework, and then you’re putting everything in their it learning management system, when you can often do is touch a course as as an assessment, completion. So if I finish this course, when I finished this quiz, I have determined that then this competency, you are now competent in this skill, or enterprise solution also has a lot of space for assessment and management around that because it’s really a relationship between a manager and an employee, more often than not. And so quite often also, because it might be in industry, they have to have an assessment on the field. So the so it’s offline, they’ll go out, and they’ll do the assessment. And then you can also upload a piece of evidence that’s like really physical here, put a piece of paper into a computer, but you can upload files or something like that, or videos or images or whatever it is to show proof that this person has completed this and then check off the competency in, in our technology, it would be a learning plan, so the competencies would reside there. And then you could check it off. And if you wanted to take that

HR component a little bit further, you can swing them down into appraisals, and attach goals and everything. So it’s actually a really robust system to pull it all together.

Now, I’m going to add one more piece to that just because I think it’s a whole story. because quite often we think, okay, we’re done, you’re not done. That’s only half of the story. As far as I’m concerned. The other half of the story is reporting out onto this. So you’ve got your competencies, framework array, you’ve got your people, and they’re showing whether they’ve done the learning they’ve done out in the field, they’ve done that, and other organizations will go back to that sort of senior management, why are we doing this, we go back to those guys and say, I’ve got a report that says on team, a 67% of the people are proficient in these competencies, what’s the next step. And now I can then take an action item back into the team and say we need to train on this and, and design. And this also goes back to what Rachel was saying earlier, specifically focused training for those people to fill in the gaps. And that’s really a big part of what this is all about or recruitment. It looks like we need somebody who is good at x or y. And now I’m going to go to HR and I’m going to hire those people. So the reporting aspect of that technology solution, I think is essential. What information do you want to get out of it? How does that measure your success, which we’ve been talking about? quite a bit in this hour? And how do you prove that? And then what’s the action item out of that? Because it’s not like, yeah, we’re done, you’re not done, what’s the next step is then you know, maybe we grow our competencies, you get 100% competent workforce, awesome. Now grow your competency list and add five more, and then you can build it out like that. So. So that’s pretty high level on that. I don’t know if there’s any more questions that I could speak to more specifically.

Rachel Weiss 39:09
I like that, I’ll just chime in real quickly, I like that idea of bringing of thinking about how it connects the entire system, you know, that idea of like, for me as a hiring manager. This is definitely one of the things I do is look at my team, you know, map, map my team out on our own competency, you know, competency map to see, okay, where are my team gaps, so that when I’m recruiting, it really does give me a good sense of not just like I need someone who, you know, who knows how to use this piece of technology that, you know, Articulate Storyline, or someone who’s good at learning, you know, whatever, it’s a broader, a broader way for me to really tap into, okay, these are our strengths, here are the spaces where we still need that full, you know, we need strength to really map out our whole team. And that’s what we want to recruit for. Because in my mind, then as I’m recruiting for those, those gaps, those people are going to come in with those competencies and be able to kind of help level up the entire team. And then, of course, hopefully, my l&d initiatives match what you know, what the competencies are saying is most important for the business.

I think that if we’re not, you know, it would be very cruel in my mind, for a business to create this competency model, and really be pushing toward that, especially with rewards recognition, all of that, and not have the development tools to support it. It’s kind of just like giving one half of a puzzle, you know, that if you’ve got the expectation, you’ve got to have the support to match that to help people reach that.

Toddi Norum 40:48
Mm hmm. And Rachel, I, I totally agree with you. And I think this is, in my mind, one of the reasons why you would develop this, but also, you know, to go back to something I really want to drive home is make a plan and make a big plan. And, and know what you want to get out of this. And as you start down the journey of building out your competency framework, you’ll find like we have all found here, that it’s, it’s awesome. And there’s a lot you could do with that. And you know, as I was thinking about it, again, you get this, this reporting out of it, that can actually feed back into so many other business units within the system. So if you’ve got outward marketing, and so I work at a, you know, Software as a Service, SAS model company, and a lot of the clients that I work with might have a similar thing. And so what people want is, I want to know, the people that I’m going to work with when I’m working with your company have the skills. And so now you’ve got a competency framework and training framework, but you also have a way of marketing out to the universe, how awesome you and your team are because you are competent in these levels. And in this world, and we spoke into this a little bit like relationship is the is the currency now. And those sort of competencies are often around building good people skills and relationship skills. And so if I’m trying to build relationship with external clients, then I want to know that the people that I’m working with are competent. And so it becomes this, this really interesting tool that has a lot of spread and a lot of communication out to other places.

Rachel Weiss 42:20
Yeah, and I think it’s, it’s also interesting and helpful to me to think about different roles, you know, whether it’s job titles, whatever, but where, where do you land on that competency map, you know, that proficiency for this competency is going to look different at different levels. When I talked about conflict management before, you know, for for more of an entry level role. My the competency I’m looking for may just be to recognize that conflict is healthy and not shy away from it, or push back on it, you know, maybe that’s just like the very beginning. Whereas once I’m getting into my senior leadership, it should be helping to, you know, helping others to voice that’s seeking out how to help we help really manage conflict, you know, and helping others. So, I mean, there is like a spectrum, and you can kind of map out, at what level, do I expect these behaviors, and then it allows people to, if you can really give them some good examples. In my mind, that’s also something that I always like to include is here, competencies, but what does this look like, you know, for us in our business, right now, what does this look like? So then it gives me even as an employee a chance to say like, okay, I can see that I am right now, really, in this range, you know, I want to be at this level, in a year’s time in two years time, you know, so how am I going to start developing myself to match what the business wants and needs and says, This is what good looks like for us? Or this is what great looks like for us? And, and then I also want to I just saw a plus one there. And I’m going to do a plus one as well. I think one of the one of the ways that I’ve been able to have an impact, the most impact on my learning and development and training teams has really been around that. That critical aspect, as you say, of reporting out to those key stakeholders, because they’re oftentimes, l&d and operations can sometimes be in a little bit of conflict. Truthfully, they’re not, but it can feel that way. And so I think that, you know, being able to all I think one of the best ways for l&d to always continually prove its value is to prove its value, meaning always sharing back out with stakeholders. And then being honest, I mean, there are times where I have had to share like, Hey, you know, when I when I, when we worked to this program out, these were the success measures we were looking for, this is what we were expecting, it’s not exactly what happens, we’re going to go back, you know, always being clear about what you’re doing. So that, that people have that faith in you as a real person. But looking at

it, what does that? What does that mean, for Ellen d? How do we show ourselves as true performance consultants to the business because I think that, you know, in the past training tends to be more of like a touchy feely like, oh, or just, they’re just taking a test, you know, whatever. And I think we’re really moving so far beyond that into competencies into looking at the behaviors and the business impact that our learning programs are having on the with those behaviors that we’re driving is so important to share out, because that’s how you’re going to get the buy in. And that’s how you’re going to get the value to continue moving forward.

Toddi Norum 45:38
Right. And I think that I’m going to, I’m going to tie that actually directly into the technology as well. So the the platform that I’m working with, allows you to so the competencies reside in what we call learning plans, and you can set up learning plans for that the end user, the learner can determine so it could be like I’m reaching out and I saying I would like to move into management, I want to learn these skills. And so I can create my own learning plan with those competencies. It can, you can also allow the manager to create that you can set up both. So you can sit down with your manager like in our company, we do a one to one weekly. And I might say hey, I want to do this. So the manager could say, Great, I want you to learn these five things. So I’m going to create a learning plan for you. And then in the next six months, let’s see where you get with that. And that can also, like I said earlier be drawn into an appraisal or your annual review or what however that works. So it allows for that sense of either top down if that’s what it needs are in that sense of like nourishing growth within the company, but also creating an avenue for for the learner to self create their own learning path, which I think is really important. A lot of companies right now. And that sets it up. So

I think there was something else but I forgotten anyways. Yes, that answers I think a little bit what Rachel was saying, like the technology does match that requirements.

Rachel Weiss 47:04
And I love that the way you’re setting it up of really giving people the autonomy and the power to say, this is what I want to do. Let me work with my manager, let me look at the resources that are available to me through the company, you know, training platform and figure out how to make this happen.

Unknown Speaker 47:21
Yeah, yeah.

Toddi Norum 47:26
Yeah, questions. See?

I right. Look at this. So Cara asks a question, what is l&d his role in interpreting a competency model to update and refine existing models?

I’m just going to think about that for a second.

Depending on the company that you’re in, and how much how much l&d like what, what the impact is, but I think it really is about looking at

it’s a it’s a communication, it’s a collaboration. So you need to work really closely, you want to be able to build the right training materials for the right people at the right time. And I think that breaking out, a competency model allows you to do targeted training. And again, having that good reporting element allows you to, I mean, part of our solution is a really robust reporting application. And so we’ve built it out. So I can say, Show me by department, show me by individual, show me by manager, what these competencies are. And so when I look at that, then I can see that maybe I’m just going to say an example, maybe sales in this department or not, office isn’t doing so well on this one competency, that I might actually develop some materials to send to that sales team over there. And that is available for everybody. But it’s about more targeted training, as opposed to what used to be more of like, here’s a staff training day and everyone’s life. Because I don’t know, I don’t care about operations, or I don’t care about this, you know, like things that I don’t know anything about, I want to know what I need to know. And so I think a good competency framework in learning and development gives you targeted training, which means you have engaged learners. And I think that’s the goal that

Rachel Weiss 49:20
Absolutely, I mean, this is really like adult learning theory, one on one, right? You want people to be interested in invested and be able to very clearly see how what I am learning in this program is going to affect the job that I’m doing. You know, how I show up in the business, all of this. And so, I love that aspect of it of really being able to clearly tie this course, not only Well, you know, completing this course, or doing following this learning path will not just allow you to, you know, increase your metrics or you know, whatever these like hard, tangible things are, but there’s also that career path benefit to it. Because if you don’t have that end to end vision, you do lose that buy in, if I’m going to spend my time and my energy in your in your l&d courses, and I’m, you know, I’m doing something, what’s the payoff? What’s in it for me, you know, and so I think that that is a huge piece of why that end to end matters.

Toddi Norum 50:21
Mm hmm. And to tag onto that, Rachel, I think that,

again, we’re we’re in a work world where we want employees who have more agency who have like who are think for themselves who reach out and do things, we just need that the world requires that more. And so we need to set up competency modeling and l&d offerings that allow people to have that agency and walk away from that job and say, while I was at this role, I learned XY and Z that factors into job satisfaction very, very highly these days. And so you have that is a carrot within itself. If it’s if it’s presented, well,

Rachel Weiss 51:03
that’s a great call out, you know, that it’s not just learning how to be successful with the technology and the product and exactly what we’re doing right here in this business. But there is that transferable skill set, you know that I keep going back to conflict management, just because it’s an easy one, you know, but thinking about that even it means certain leadership competencies, working with pure communication, you know, all of these things, but if I’ve, if I’ve got a good attitude about conflict management, and I have some really good tools to be able to speak, speak my mind in a way that fits the culture of the business, and everyone is willing to listen, that’s something that can absolutely be taken anywhere, you know. And so I think, to your point, like, with how, just with, with where we are in the business, what we expect from people now at work, I think, is definitely different. And the fact that we often see people, you know, are not with the same company more than a few years. So if the case how are how are we? How are we tailoring our programming, our l&d programming and maybe competency pieces to? How are we tailoring that to the reality of the world to what people want? So that they can take those, those skill sets anywhere if they desire? Mm hmm.

Unknown Speaker 52:24
I’m just looking at this. Me too.

Unknown Speaker 52:31
Great points.

Erin Melvin 52:33
Yeah, I agree. I think we’re it’s a, it’s an

Toddi Norum 52:38
it’s a new world of work. And the more technical, the more automated and all of that it becomes more AI comes into it, then we really need to, to provide these spaces for people where and then those soft skills, I think we even soft skills that are so essential to the workplace conflict manage it is really, really important. And that would be people watch, like, when you recruiting people, you can say like, we’ve got this great training program, and we’re going to get you going. And again, sort of back to that reporting. And the idea is that we’ve also developed like the ability for like the learner to have this sort of report that belongs to them now. And when they walk away, they’re like, I accomplish this. So is either an exit interview or, or moving into the next place, it really sort of bolsters up that company, and I see a lot of tech companies, I’m in Vancouver. And there’s a lot of tech companies here and and recruitment is big, and they want people to come in. And so they invite people, I go to a lot of meetups and I get to see a lot of different offices, but they have their values quite often on the wall. So these competencies may be like a core value set of the company. And not only am I going to learn about that sort of in my white l&d, but I also see it on the wall. And so others come into the office, they’re like, Oh, this is what this company is all about. And it’s loud and proud. And it’s really, really good. And it’s that constant sort of knowledge boosting idea that, you know, you’ve got out of l&d, but I see it not just online, but I see it everywhere where I go, and that helps people see, I understand what this company is about. And I want to work with these people. So you can really draw it out as well to make that happen.

Oh, I think we just lost Rachel for a minute there.

Unknown Speaker 54:31
Tony, I can’t hear you. I think are we

Erin Melvin 54:36
in a sec?

Toddi Norum 54:39
Bitly back?

Oh, yeah, Tony, I think we’ve, you’re on mute, maybe or?

Unknown Speaker 54:54
No, you’ve.

Rachel Weiss 54:56
And I lost the last 30 seconds. I’m not really sure where we ended up. I know,

Toddi Norum 55:02
I got distracted by looking at. Um, yeah, just sort of the idea that we could pull those competencies out. And it becomes part of the culture. So it was sort of circling back around to that.

Rachel Weiss 55:13
Yeah, yes. So that that I was going to dovetail on that as well. Because as we were building, so when I came into my current role, there was not a lot of learning technology yet. So we were actually in the process right now of implementing our first lm s. And one of the things that I spoke to my team about that was really important to me, was that the I think the reporting function of thinking about

having a really clear and nice transcript that follows the employees so that and obviously, that wouldn’t necessarily be outside of the business, but thinking about staying within the company, moving laterally, moving up whatever it is, but being able to, to say, like I took these courses, and these are going to be applicable to my success here, no matter where I am. And also even just as a way, it, you know, it can be somewhat of a differentiator when you’re looking to bring in new people into a department to see okay, what, again, like, let’s look at the transcript. Let’s see, you know, how have you taken advantage of what l&d is offering for you? Mm hmm. I’m looking, yes. So I like that I, the, with the transcript, we’re actually utilizing some different certifications, to almost, I think, to what you’re talking about this micro credential. So we were looking at a shared services model. So there are times in our business, there’s some seasonality to it. So there are times when one team, say for two to three months needs an extra 20 people that they don’t need the rest of the year. So how can l&d support in that with creating proactively, you know, working with that team to create a little certification or micro credentialing, you know, that says, I, I’ve learned the basics of this, I you know, I’m the right fit, I already have a sense of what we’re talking about for you to be able to take me over onto your team with minimal additional training, shows interest, it shows, competency, you know all of that. So for me that I think that that is going to be something that’s going to be really important for us to be pushing in our department around around this business, because it is new here. This idea of your transcripts really being a highlight of who you who you are in the company and what you can do.

Toddi Norum 57:40
Mm hmm. To go along with that just sort of micro credentials can give you that sense of not not full gamification, but the idea of like, there’s many rewards as you go along. And so there’s a sense of, of leveling up achieving. And I think people that’s important too. I love getting bad. I’m, I’m a little bit of a nerd like that. But I totally love I got a badge. And I it doesn’t matter how old I am. It works for me. And so it’s got to work for other people. And I think that when I get like a little certificate or something, I feel proud of myself. Yeah.

Rachel Weiss 58:17
I’m so glad to hear you say that. Because that’s what we’re in the midst of right now is designing our badges. We marketing. So the look really cool, making stickers, all sorts of stuff, to really get everyone pumped up about what this could mean for them.

Toddi Norum 58:30
Yeah, yeah. And that’s what it is. That’s the company culture that’s like, we together are building this up together. And it’s like, hey, like marketing’s got like, you know, 87%, let’s make that 95 by the end of this year, and then that’s a way of also setting concrete goals, and achieving them, and getting people to work together towards that. And I think that people crave that people a lot of people do so they that works to achieve those original goals that we’re talking at the outset. Like the company has a goal. How do we trickle that down to the rank and file on the floor to make sure that they’re also getting that buy in and saying yeah, I want that and I’m going to get it through my badges and my micro credentials and my certificates and feeling feeling proud of myself for what I’ve done and having the language I am confident in X y&z

Unknown Speaker 59:22
So, so I think we got a cut out soon.

Toddi Norum 59:26
Let’s see bad. I’ve been enjoying this conversation a lot.

Erin Melvin 59:33
Thanks, everybody.

Unknown Speaker 59:35

Rachel Weiss 59:38
Okay, we will come back, please.

Toddi Norum 59:41
Yeah, I will absolutely be back. I want to

Unknown Speaker 59:45
see if you can get the sound go in.

Unknown Speaker 59:48

Unknown Speaker 59:52
All right.

Toddi Norum 59:56
Okay, so I wonder if maybe Tony won’t be able to say say goodbye. But we can do that. What for having me on today. I really enjoyed meeting Rachel and tidy and your great questions. I’m such an engaged audience. I really appreciate that so much. So what a What a pleasure to be here today.

Rachel Weiss 1:00:15
I agree. And it’s, it’s really cool to see different, you know, people in different areas, different geographic locations, different areas of business, all of that stuff. And show I think it to me is one of those really nice benefits, like for me with Alan D and thinking about how like, kind of brings everybody together and that there are you know, there are certain things that have to happen very functionally for a business and I definitely get that but there are also so many things that are really just so broad and needed. You know, when we think about competencies in the ways that l&d can really support that makes me so excited.

Erin Melvin 1:00:56

Unknown Speaker 1:00:58
All right.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:00
Taking a break

Transcript Session 2:

Toddi Norum 0:08
Yay, we made it back on. I hoping my guests can get back on. Well, I’m looking at my registered attendees. So it looks like we’ve got about 12 people that have come back from are like 60 that we had before. And it’s all with my my awesome folks that I totally love. Hi, Kara. Hi, Molly. I john, like Zacks here with us, Avi obbies, my coworker, so I’m really excited to have obby with us. So yay. So everybody jump in and start saying hi, and asking questions. And so we have the answer question piece down here on the bottom of your screen. So as we go through this, please, please feel free to ask questions of our guests. And we’ll monitor this. So if any of you guys were with us on the last cast, you know that Todd, he had major technical difficulties, and with the silent host. And I have totally learned the I have amazing guests because they can just carry it all on their own, and they didn’t need me. So all good, we’re going to continue because we were having such an amazing conversation before. So I’ll just introduce this really quickly. in case anybody wasn’t part of our last session, we are talking about competency modeling, job architecture, the value of this to the business. And so Rachel’s got a lot of experience with that. And Aaron actually is our expert in translating like the completed models into technology. And so we’re really eager to hear from her as well. Because if any of you guys know me, I’m like kind of a tech guru. And I’m the elements manager for my company. And so you know, we’re we participated in this competency modeling project in my workplace. And I’m thinking all right now how does that translate into the LM s? And then and so in our last conversation, we were talking about career advancement, and how to really engage folks in direct kind of self directing their career advancement. And the platform can help with that. So anyway, I’m really eager to turn it back over to my ladies, because we have the best conversations. Let’s just rock on.

Erin Melvin 2:13
Yeah, so it’s a specific? Hmm, there’s lots of ways that I can sort of talk about getting into the learning management system, was there a specific space that you’d like us to sort of start in that or?

Toddi Norum 2:26
Well, one of the areas that I think is really interesting is, first of all, how do we build out like career paths for people within the elements that aren’t just about acknowledging skill sets? Or just, you know, going through videos and saying, hey, I’ve completed us, because I think we all see things in icon window, we can have some content, pardon my jet Russell.

We, they have amazing content, and they offer like certifications online, when you complete it yet some of them have, you know, like in line assessments, you know, to be able to demonstrate that you’ve actually understood the information that you get, but how can we take the competency modeling to be able to line out career paths and career progression for people and translate that into technology in a way that’s engaging? So they know that they can go and kind of self direct? Yeah.

Erin Melvin 3:17
Yeah, absolutely. I’m going to talk about that first, from an administrators perspective. And then I’ll sort of swing that around maybe and talk a little bit about what the end user will experience. And I will start with administrators, because that’s usually where I have the people that I work with, and the people who are setting up the the framework. So again, going back to the technology that we use, because it’s an enterprise learning management system, and it has this HR component that has a competencies, and it also has the ability to set apart other hierarchies within the system. So we’re looking at the language they would use would be organizations that positions. So you could set up an organization like a department and a position like these rules that we’re talking about. And so there’s all these different components that come together. So we’ve got our competency framework resides here. And that’s a nested option if you want, and then you’ve got these position and organization frameworks. What that means is that I can, once I set up my competency framework, I can say, these were talking earlier about, say like overall or leadership or core core competencies. So this is something that everyone in the company needs when they onboard, or maybe annually, we need to to have this. And so we can set up a competency. That’s all in like, everybody has to take this, when the technology also has the ability to set up a certification in the sense that if it is something that you need to revisit every year, then all the notifications will go out and say, Hey, everybody in the company, please come back and do this video, or we’ve updated it, and we need you to do this, then you can also target these positions. So I’m setting this up in my technology. So I can say everybody who’s in marketing needs to take these courses. And so once you set that up, you can in your learning plan, you can say,

assign this learning plan, assign the competencies to the people in the position to this learning plan. So if I assign that learning plan to everybody in marketing, they’re just going to get all the competencies that are assigned to that position, or the organization. So there’s lots of different, it’s a big build at the beginning. But again, the idea is that if you’re working with like thousands of people on a structure, which is what these people often are, we’re but also automating that structure as well, which is, makes a lot of people happy when it’s automated, right? Because you’re taking a lot of manual labor off of their hands. Now, that’s the administrators dream, right? To make it easy for myself. And then the end user, how’s it different kind of experience will the end user can come in, and they don’t have to look at like, if I’m a marketing, I don’t have to look at sis ops trainings, because that doesn’t mean anything to me. And I don’t want to see it. So I might even have my own dashboard, that might highlight something that’s new, say, hey, we’ve got this new course on conflict management, because I like that too. So just to pick up Rachel’s face there. So. And one of the new sort of updates for this technology allows you to have these sort of banners. And so I log into the LM s, and I can say, oh, new course on conflict management, take this and get your badge or your micro credential, or all these sort of like sort of ideas. And that click into it. And I take that. And again, that’s one of those things that you can set up with our technology, it could be a video, it could be a quiz, it could also be so they have is like a seminar type structure, which is almost event planning. And so what you could do is create that face to face component to it, which is we’re saying a lot of this would be

sort of in the field or offline, its way of managing it. And so they could see that there.

And then what you could do is then have your assessor or your manager, whoever who needs to do that come in, and then check off what you’ve done. And then you would have a record of that through your record of learning. So you’re always there’s nothing ever hidden from you as a learner. And there’s nothing ever hidden from either the administrator or the manager, it’s all very clear how it’s set up. And so the communication is there.

Toddi Norum 7:34
Yeah. Oh, I’m sorry.

Erin Melvin 7:38
I might just add one more thing to that. And then yeah, sorry, cuz it’s all these ideas, I think, also to speak to that, because I think one of the questions that Tony was asking is sort of like that user experience, and how do we set that up. And this idea of a lot of the clients that I’ve worked with, do you have different structures, and so they’ll have those management driven, or technical role driven

competencies that you sometimes actually have to complete that training before you get on the floor. And then there’ll be more of the Career Development items that might be more of a, I’m reaching up and grabbing that training and moving forward with it. And so the technology allows for however you want to make that happen. And quite often, what I see which I like to is that they’ll have an idea, client will a will have an idea when they come in and see what the technology goes, that’s actually a really good idea. And they change their or their plans, because they didn’t think that that could be a thing. And that actually opens up the program for them a little bit, which, that’s always my favorite kind of day at work. You know, the technology inspires growth by so

Rachel Weiss 8:48
totally. And that’s actually a good, a good segue, because I was also thinking about that end user experience and where you know, where everything aligns. Because one of the things that we’ve done, as we’ve started building, our, our learning framework, I guess, is that, you know, there are certain pieces to your point, Aaron that are functional, and kind of not, they’re not, they’re mandatory, I’ll just say it, right? Like, you gotta take this, if you want to, you know, stay in this role and be successful in this role. These are the courses you take. But then we’ve also built in this additional layer above, that is more for that the person who’s thinks like, what do you know, what competencies what they need to be successful in this department? What do they do in this department? How does the competencies that I’m already good at translate to a role in these other departments, so kind of giving them that, that autonomy to you know, to use it as they wish, so maybe I already know I want to go here, I’m just gonna take all the courses for that I’m going to get my micro certification, my badges, all that stuff, and be ready, you know, when the time comes, that I can be the shining star? And others maybe I just want to know a little bit, what did they do? What did they do? What did they do so really being able to give that autonomy to the learner, that, and I think we all recognize that if you think about even just when you went to, you know, if you go to college, you’ve got your required courses, and you’ve got your electives, you know, it’s the same thing, really being able to, to architect your learning path, or from our end, architects, or engineering learning paths that are broad enough or clear enough for people to know, okay, these are my must haves, and these are, what now it’s open for me. And then also to speak, that the the reporting piece, and the the,

the way that we’re assessing is really important to me, as well. And so technologically speaking, there have been so many new advancements and different ways of doing things recently that have really affected how we are developing our content in our programming, to the point where, you know, for certain competencies, there are now technological pieces where you can give them a scenario, and they can record their response and send that back for someone to you know, what I mean? So things like that, where it isn’t just, can you answer questions on a test? That is not that that is not one valuable way to assess people, it’s clearly not the only way. And when it comes to things like conflict management, things like influencing up, you know, I don’t, oftentimes, if I’m giving you a multiple choice or fill in, like, you know, that doesn’t necessarily tell me that you actually know how to do it. There’s so many times where you can know the textbook definition, you know what the right answer is, but it doesn’t mean if you had to actually say that out loud, or, or do that, you know, with, with someone on the phone, or whatever it is that you can do that. So knowing and doing really are two different things. And I think that that’s where our our assessment has to, has to get strong, you know, is is being able to show the doing, because that’s where we’ll bring the value to the business to say like, okay, it’s not just that they took a test, like I actually heard them explain this concept, the way they would explain it to a customer or whatever it is. And it was really good, you know, that kind of thing.

Erin Melvin 12:21
Yeah, you know, I my

Toddi Norum 12:26
observation checklist, which is kind of the same concept. So go ahead. Sorry.

Erin Melvin 12:31
Yeah, no, and I like that, because there’s so many different ways. I saw that as a question that came up in the first session, you know, like, how do you assess, and I think that often sort of depends on what the skill is and what the organization looks like, and what the staffing staffing is to get you to do that. But one of the clients that I work with is, is industry and safety. And basically if you if you pick up a chainsaw, you have to take this kind of thing as chainsaw safety, right? is really important. So they went through and created a really like complex competency models. But on top of that, they created a train the trainer and train the assessor program as well. So that as they’re building up this session for the learners, they also built on top of that it was it was often a progressive. So if I went here, that I can also become an assessor. And so now that I know that all my assessors are standardized to go along with this standardized set. And that’s important. Because what does assessment look like if you leave that sometimes up to and this is, again, as an organizational conversation? That’s a little bit outside of the the l&d product, but it’s part of the package is, are we are we aligned on assessment because one manage, because one of the things that they were talking about the client was, you know, just really honest, there’s like this favoritism or there is, you know, there’s bias in these kinds of things. And if we want to have standardization, which is a big part of competency training, is, is to have standardized assessment as well. And so they they actually ran their assessors through, they built a program and ran them through a competency training program to become assessors so that they could assess the employees on their competencies.

Unknown Speaker 14:18
I hope that makes sense. I,

Rachel Weiss 14:20
I think that the observation and checklist piece is really key to because then we’re looking at not just, you know, what is this competency look like? Or what it you know, someone who’s good at conflict management can do XY and Z. But how does that fit within what we want for our motive success, you know, and so I think here, you know, if we’re Eric’s talking about strict clinical procedures, that’s obviously different than, you know, something maybe a touch fuzzy or like, influencing up or, you know, those types of things. But one of the, one of the, one of the mantras that I had to start repeating over and over again, which is what you do with the mantra, when I got here was really that idea that, that this is workplace learning, like we’re, yes, it’s cool to learn, like healthcare is cool, it’s cool to learn about it, I love knowing these things. That actually is not what we’re here to do. We’re not learning for fun. You know, like, when you go to a university, and you’re just trying to figure things out, you’re learning, you’re here to do a specific job. And the training that we’re giving you is preparing you with the right skills, focusing on the right competencies to do that job. And so everything that we do in that learning space and learning world needs to really connect back to how do I do this at my job? And I think assessments have to match that. But I like that idea of the observation and checklist for competencies as well, because then it’s not just a generic, like, do you know recognize conflict, you have a good attitude about it, you know, but it is specific to what we’re trying to drive success here in your role, as well as then being able to know Okay, what does this competency look like, then for the next role that I want to get to if I want to get there, I understand the conflict management is important. But what do we where do we need to go from here to here to get to that next space? Mm hmm. That specific competency,

Erin Melvin 16:19
right. And I think that’s something like, again, through the technology perspective, like our technology allows you to build your own skills and attach different types of your description to those scales. So competency framework is attached to a scale. So you can have multiple frameworks with multiple different scales. And I’ve seen that in sort of very large organizations where they have very different teams doing different things, or the leadership versus technical sort of, or core versus technical, they might just want to assess that differently. So you can set up a different type of scale, whether that’s competent, competent with supervision or not competent. So that is sort of the default to to language that suits that HR or that organization. And that allows that to happen. And then that also that idea of being able to upload evidence. And so I think, Rachel, you’re saying earlier, like take a picture, take a video. So again, like I’m using a chainsaw, which I don’t know how to use. But if I was using a chainsaw, like that’s not something I could do in the office with a computer, right? That’s, that’s the thing, I’m out side. And but I can use my phone or get somebody else to video how I do that particular technique. And then I can upload that and then that could be tied as evidence and say, Look, you did x y&z perfectly, therefore is competent. And that becomes part of the larger record of learning. And that is what technology allows us to do these days, it’s so much easier to have images have video and have that is evidence.

Rachel Weiss 17:52
I love using the word evidence to I think that’s really great, like, not not just assessing you to see where you fall, but like I were showing, instead, yes, I can master this competency, right, I hit the proficiency level where you need me to be I like that.

Erin Melvin 18:07
Yeah, and I think something for the for the for the fuzzier areas, because I like that, too, is I was doing a session earlier this year on adaptive learning. And this idea of using a different type of activity within the LM s that allows you to branch. And that means so you’ve got so like I work in technology. So we’ve got a support team, and we’re always like on the phone, talking to clients. And so you could walk a new person through different scenarios. So, client asked this, and your answer is x. And then you’ve got three choices, and then you start to follow a story. And then that whole piece can be also part of the either the evidence or the conversation. And so at the end of the day, you can look at the results of this and go, No, I need to do some more training with this person, that could be part of the course, that leads them to a competency that leads them to the conversation. So I might set up a course that says, here’s, here’s some training, here’s an adaptive exercise, so I can see, you know, where you’re hitting it, and then I’m going to set up an appointment with you to discuss that. And then we’re going to maybe loop back or continue. And now we’ve got deeper learning in that. And I like that because the adaptive piece of it gives them the choice to make mistakes. And the idea of writing good at adaptive learning, I get another sort of larger piece to build, but it’s about variations of incorrectness. So it’s not that way, like you often see me in sort of, like, you know, check the box kind of things. It’s like, Ooh, that could be right, or that’s pretty. They’re all look right. So you have to make a decision, because life is like that we’re making multiple, many decisions as we go along. And so on the softer financial skills, can you self correct out of that? Or did you make the wrong decision from the beginning? And and like, where do you go from there. And I think that’s a really nice tool in the builds of the automation of a competency, that can lead you to a space of having a good conversation or a good assessment. And that’s something that’s built into the technology and that I’m seeing more and more people in sort of E learning building branching scenarios, because it provides this choice, it was going back to that idea of we want employees to think, by themselves and make those decisions. And so we can set them up the multiple choice exam is is great, fast, easy, but it doesn’t necessarily get into the deeper decision making and the continuous decision making process. Whereas adaptive learning might get you there. And

Rachel Weiss 20:53
to pile on to that is, you know, realistic consequences. So you make the choice, you know, maybe you made an okay choice, or there’s a great choice, there’s a bad choice. But what happens from here And to your point, as we’re branching out, you know, okay, now you you made an okay, choice, here’s the consequence of that. Now what you know, that have this this effect, and that’s, to me, the branching scenarios are really that’s the true value of them is to be able to take it down the line to say, Okay, well, then what would happen? Well, then what would happen, you know, and so, because I have seen a lot of branching scenarios where, you know, someone picks an answer, it’s kind of like, nope, no, didn’t answer their question. Try again. It’s like, okay, but what if that is what I had said, like, why would I expect on the other side, where where is my learning opportunity? How do I know where I’m going to get better? Where I missing this piece of the competency? Whatever it is, you know, how am I going to know that if I don’t have that structured feedback? So to me, that’s one of the most important things I love branching scenarios. Absolutely love them. And I think learners tend to really enjoy them too. Hello, as they prove that kind of real world value. Exactly what they’re experiencing.

Erin Melvin 22:05
Yeah, yeah, the consequences, everything. So if you get into that, and you like, the client hangs up angrily, you’re like, Oh, boy. But I go back to try that again.

That’s direct learning, I think for it’s like low risk direct learning for the for the learner, because they’re like, oh, boy, that’s really stung. But I’m still learning. So I’m okay. Just an exercise.

Rachel Weiss 22:29
Absolutely. I really like what Jonathan is talking about here to this idea of uploading something in the assessor watching it and commenting on what they observe. We’re just getting started with stuff like that. both video and even just like a, you know, giving a scenario. And for example, we have a messaging component to the business. So having, you know, saying, okay, here’s what someone messaged in, what would you message back and being able, within the technology to come comments specifically? So, you know, in being able to highlight and say, like, you know, have you thought about the implications of, of this word? Or, you know, like, do you think that this would this makes sense, the way that we’ve talked about it, whatever it is, but being able to really pinpoint in that moment, what it is, you know, I definitely understand privacy nightmare, for sure. I work in healthcare right now. So I absolutely understand that concept. And I’m always trying to find creative ways around it, you know, to ultimately get to a point where, like, we can distill the activity and the assessment and the feedback to the the ultimate goal to the ultimate success. What are those competencies that we’re really trying to drive here and, and make incremental movement on? Mm hmm.

Toddi Norum 23:50
Yeah, or less that you guys have taken this to a different, like a deeper level conversation with respect to technology, which is really the instructional design piece of this. And I, I actually have participated in doing instructional design pieces in the past where we were really focused on creating emotional intelligence with respect to sales teams, folks that are dealing with customers on a daily basis. And rather than doing a branching scenario, we did present like kind of a scenario at the beginning. And then we have like a devil on the shoulder type of thing with the rollovers where you would, you know, start to select the answer. And as she rolled over that hot spot, it would say, yes, but is that the exact best answers at the best solution? And, again, like you have 44 different possible answers, and maybe none of them were exactly right. But we are the instructional design piece of that developed, so that we were really kind of promoting that whole emotional intelligence.

So I mean, and you know, it’s like, I didn’t realize at the time that I was doing that type of thing. But I really, you know, it’s exciting before you talk about this translation of competency that way, I have to stop Yeah.

Why I was in the other spot to begin with,

Unknown Speaker 25:07

Toddi Norum 25:10
enablement of, you know, that type of situation, where you can really prompt someone to start thinking and interacting, even with a piece of software on an lm s, is just, it’s great. I mean, you know, that I’m just super excited

to have been hosting a couple cool and center keras has has been my experience that not every competency equals training, and it gets really super true. How do you make that determination and communicate it to stakeholders, because obviously, the stakeholders are helping us determine what that learning cap is going to look like, for every competency? I’ll let you guys answer that.

Rachel Weiss 25:51
That’s a good question. Because you know it, in my mind, it’s going back to that the top, the top goals and the top success measures in that moment for the business because, you know, I could probably map out 50 things, you know, that we mean, whatnot. Additionally, I think that I agree that not every competency needs, like, you know, here’s our conflict management course, and here is our influencer course. And here’s our talk, you know, communicating with stakeholders course, like, so totally agree that it’s not necessarily like a one to one to one all of the time. But I would say that if it is, if it’s a competency, that, that we’re targeting, and that we’re saying is important, I would have like sprinkling of this without with it, and you know, it’s very rare. In my mind, I try to keep it very Where, where, where one course is literally just like all only that, because I really like to push scaffolding. And I think that with learning paths, you can do that, right? Like you can do the beginning courses will just be focused on that. But then as you get into those higher level things, it’s so rare that, you know,

my my conflict management won’t always won’t won’t also have to do with like word choice or tone or

de escalation techniques, you know, whatever it is that there are different pieces that kind of fit through there. And so, for me, Cara in this, in this context, scaffolding is thinking about the way that we introduce and supplement content so that, you know, I want to get you up here, the end result is that you’ve got, you know, these five competencies and you’re strong in them. So I’m going to pick the maybe the most important one, maybe the most difficult one, maybe the easiest one, you know, depending on the way that I’m I’m structuring my program, I’m going to pick something that we can really anchor on to and start with. But then as we’re moving through that learning path, or just kind of throwing in, you know, little pieces here and there from other stuff, so that by the time it gets to the the top, it’s not even necessarily clear, like, oh, wow, I was on a step ladder, the whole time moving up above, I thought I was just going straight. But I was actually, you know, these pieces were getting built in. And it’s something from an instructional design standpoint that I’ve had to push home with my team, which who right now is not super strong with instructional design, you know, best practices and principles. And so talking about the fact that like, if you have in this, you know, you have this, this is a day three activity we’re doing, like, yes, the biggest focus on assessment, and all of this should be this content, but throw innocent, you know, a piece of the scenario from what we talked about yesterday, throw in these things, so that he can start thinking about them, even sometimes throw in something we’re going to see in the future, they may look at it now and say, I don’t know what I’m going to do with that. But then when we’re there tomorrow, we say, Hey, remember yesterday, when so and so whatever, you know. So to me, scaffolding is really just that the building blocks within the instructional design, and within the program itself, that just provide a very easy, as long as you’re you know, doesn’t mean the work is easy, but an easy path to follow, to move yourself upward with your knowledge or skills. And I think that’s to earth shattering thing, it’s pretty common.

Erin Melvin 29:19
And I think in relationship to that the, you know, breaking down the competency framework, and I was saying earlier, like, you might have a parent competency that has children competencies, it’s hard to break tasks down sometimes. And I am I’ve been someone introduced the word smaller fi to me while ago, that was a really good word. Because sometimes, if you’re looking at kind of a big skill that has to be taken on, I think it sort of scaffolding is just like, if they’re absolutely not competent in that at all, then we have to go down to the sort of the small to smaller Fiat, and start somewhere. And that’s where I see a lot of people building in skills into their competency framework that might actually have five levels. And instead of sort of a three level, like competent, not competent, competent with supervision, but scales, because they know that that’s very difficult skill. And that between now in six months or a year, and allows you to build those sort of smart goals around it. So it’s like, okay, in six months, when we have our review, I’d like to move you up to in that scale. And then we’ll look at that. And then we can add some more training on the field work or whatever it is to make that happen. And then in another six months, we can move you up another two on that scale. So it’s not all things are sort of black and white. And that’s the thing with competencies is that it’s it’s not like you did it once, right? But can you do it five times on your own correctly, this is something that we’re building into the movement, which I which is why I think that competency training, the focus on competency is very concrete, long term lasting knowledge that the person learns other than just going through through video in a in a multiple choice quiz, which is, you know, standard learning, but it doesn’t always get into the body. And so the more that you do it, and the longer term vision it is. And so the scaffolding could also be that is where you’re starting at a lower level, and you’re just adding more material so that you can get into that parent competency. And then you can start again. And as Rachel was saying, I like this idea is that while you’re building this, they’re also rarely like perfectly siloed. So while I’m while I’m getting better at this competency, I’m also getting better at these other three competencies, and I’m lifting the whole piece up a little bit. And I see that pretty regularly.

Rachel Weiss 31:40
Yeah, thank you. And so to speak to ID making competency, I think, let me know, I gotta read.

So yes, ultimately, so if I if if I’m if I said ideas, what makes competency, I apologize, that is not what I meant. It was really more actually around what Aaron was just saying in terms of, of the evaluation piece of it, you know, of designing the content in such a way that you’re allowing people to show their success of mastering that competency. So I think that, I think basically, yes, I think to what, what Todd is saying, you know, that that focusing on how the instructional design framework aligns to building and measuring those competencies? Because really, if you you know, measuring it is what we’re really looking for here, right? Like is that’s the ultimate is just, where are you if I’m expecting you at the level you’re at, right now, if I’m expecting you’re proficient in this competency, how do I know that that’s true? How do you show it to me? And if not, what do I do to get you there? Are you in the right place? You know,

Toddi Norum 32:47
I mean, from like, a practical standpoint, so a lot of folks on here know that I used to be an old army trainer. So, you know, in the, in the army with, you know, the trade off standards that they use, everything is built on, you know, the enabling learning objective, which might be starting at it, turning on something, you know, pushing the on button and getting something powered up, you know, all the way up to being able to, you know, manipulate a hand controller to be able to, you know, type a command in the keyboard and get a response and paying back, you know, building up to a terminal learning objectives. And this goes back to literally, you know, instructional design, and, you know, don’t let anyone on one, but building on that, but then taking that framework of demonstration of, you know, not even just necessarily competencies, which is skills, and someone should perform, to be able to do that final thing. You know, and that translates, you know, kind of in a practical fashion. And I remember, I used to work with a lot of Boeing, PhDs in instructional design, it’s kind of where I got a lot of my learning from was working with them. And somebody explained it to me once and they said, You know, I mean, how do you make a cake? And, and so they went through the whole step. So, you know, basically learning how to separate in a, you know, how to do the stirring, I mean, in the end, we, you know, we broke everything down. And it’s like, after, you know, this is the way back, you know, when I first started into this field, it was like, Oh, I get it now, you know, and so I can certainly see how the frameworks that we built for instructional design or in curriculums, you know, that translate maybe into our electronic deliveries, can be very closely aligned to how we’re building out our competencies and looking for the pieces that we’re building on. That awful stuff. Stuff. This is really fun topic, actually, we’re all geeky.

Unknown Speaker 34:38
Sorry, about that.

Toddi Norum 34:42
We recall. So it is interesting. So I, Aaron, I know, you do a lot of work with translating, you know, competency modeling job architectures, into lifelong learning management systems, I will tell you, in my own organization, I think we dropped off the call, obviously, fair was on here before obby has done like this freaking amazing job and working with our engineering working groups, our stakeholders, to build out core competencies for the engineering groups, you know, really starting with basically writing requirements, you know, looking at things like risk analysis, you know, the things that have been outlined, by, you know, the management, in our, in your plans, that what they want to see full competencies for the, you know, engineers across all of our product lines, and he’s done, just a tremendous job, we roll this stuff out. And we do a lot of reporting on that, you know, like, where people are in terms of completion of units, you know, if they’ve taken the instructor led courses, you know, where they are there attract the champions that we actually really face and this this really super, like, the core competencies and and job architecture question is, our particular piece of software that we use for our lm s, does not allow us to build in very finite details on competencies or job architecture, things like job families. Yeah, I mean, like, how do you get around some of the technology blockers that are out there? During the bottlenecks I like, my lemon Sunday?

Erin Melvin 36:15
Yeah. And that’s something that, yeah, so say at the beginning, is when you’re planning if this is something that you’re starting, know, your tech know what you have in house before you get going, and understand that

a lot of technologies do a lot of great things, but none of them do everything kind of thing in that sense that, to know that. And the idea of, you know, being a technologist and understanding, like I said earlier, some technologies are open source, and you can work with, you know, the provider vendor to build out further features for that. And some of them might be proprietary, in which case, you’re probably in the box, and you may have to either add other technologies into your stack, and then you have to think about integrating them. So the technology conversation is a huge part of the pre planning of this whole item.

Yeah, so the

Toddi Norum 37:14
breakdown structure, which I can’t actually can only get into my lm s by loading it up in the CSV, and the way that our systems talk to each other right now. And I think this is true for a lot of people, you know, they don’t always speak to each other the way they should, the connectors don’t always work in a day, API calls don’t always work the way they’re supposed to. And so you end up doing a lot of really manual tasks, you know, to make these things as robust as they could possibly be. And I, you know, I wonder sometimes I’m like, Okay, this is 2019, you know, like, why, why can’t this be a little more integrated, or a little easier to, you know, basically say, Okay, this is our really cool job architecture that we put together over here, and competencies and makeup, every single job role, you know, including, you know, maybe even data like salary and like the expected growth, I mean, you know, we could we could do all kinds of forecasting and these things, and then translating that to our technology. So that, like, not even just our own message, but our HR SS and our talent acquisition software, and so has, you know, like that insight into, okay, well, this is, you know, the number of folks that we’re going to be meeting that require this core competency. There, maybe there’s some automation that can happen around that I look at it.

Erin Melvin 38:29
Yeah, and I think it’s, yeah, it’s really important. So I always keep going back to this planning piece, because I think that I see people sort of get into halfway through, and they have these really great ideas, and I agree with them. But the technology that we provide, may not reach that space, I think the one that we do is quite robust. But it’s not, as I said earlier, it has HR components, but it’s not an HR system. And so people who are going to use it, enterprise learning management system, probably already have an HR system as well. And so then it becomes the like, do they talk to each other? Maybe, maybe not, but then can we pull that data down? And then you starting to work with data analysts who can who can like pull it together? And then and have that out where reporting solutions sort of follows with the learning management system? Which is why I try to get my clients to try and use that as much as possible, because you can get a lot out there. But it’s not currently tapping into other systems, which is, which is ideal. That’s, that’s that we might be reaching into that situation. But

Unknown Speaker 39:37
yeah, it’s a good call up.

Toddi Norum 39:39
Oh, yeah. I was starting to say here, I’m hearing people are involved in this. Yes.

Rachel Weiss 39:47
Yeah, I was just gonna say it’s a good call out, you know, that preparation piece of knowing your technology, because either it’s going to tell you you need different technology, or it’s going to tell you what your parameters are, because it can be encrypted D motivating to do all of this exciting work, and then realize, Oh, my gosh, we could have something so amazing. And it’s not going to happen, because we can’t we can’t leverage what we have right now to make it happen. And I’ve been in that situation before, it’s really difficult. And it’s hard to keep everybody else motivated them to keep moving forward when they feel like they’ve seen you know how amazing something could be and then we can’t do that. So totally agree with the planning either. Do you have the ability to do what to find? What will meet your needs? If not, then how can you work within what you have?

Erin Melvin 40:33
And related to the technology in house is the people seek the technology. And so this is something else like so I was saying, like getting your competency consultant and your technology consultant. But if you do kind of a SWOT analysis or something like that the beginning of in your planning, you’re like, Do I have the human resources on my team, to build, manage maintain my competency framework. And I really want to encourage people to think about that as they move in. Because like I said, it’s it’s a long view project. It’s a worthwhile project, but it requires resources. And for this to succeed, we need to have the right people in there working on it. And I find that a lot of people that I work with who are learning management, you know, administrators either their subject matter experts in that field, but maybe not technologists, they might be a competency expert or HR person, but they’re not a tech, like so there’s quite often one piece missing. And so that’s actually something that you have to think about is lifting up is like, is this person capable of managing this technology to? So those are part of the plan as you get going, and then you can learn those skills. I obviously don’t think it’s difficult, because that’s my day to day job. But it’s not easy for people who are coming in from a completely different space. And it requires training to make them sort of up and running themselves with the competencies to run a competency program.

Unknown Speaker 42:05
Right? Yeah.

Toddi Norum 42:08
Yeah, I mean, really interesting, because as I’m watching my own organization go through this. You know, I think that’s a very valuable, valuable lesson that we have learned is that we need to be staffed up in order to support this work. Yeah, you know, we’re in that process right now. And I’m, you know, I’m excited to see it, because I think that, you know, we’re going to make more progress now that we have the right people on the team. But boy, you tend to see this. I mean, and coming into this, you know, wasn’t my native area by any means. And I really just kind of learn more about it. But, you know, understanding how this touches LNG, how it touches HR, how it touches, acquisition for talent, and you know, how that gets rolled out. And you know, who supports it? And the messaging that goes up and down? And it’s like, no, I had no clue how incredibly complex so you could be speaking about the weeks?

Erin Melvin 43:01
I think so. Yeah.

Toddi Norum 43:02
Yeah. Very cool. I’m looking to see if we have any other questions in the question queue.

Rachel Weiss 43:09
I’m just enjoying pointy quickie fun. That’s going to be my new phrase.

Unknown Speaker 43:14
A lot of pointed, Clichy fun.

Toddi Norum 43:18
So yeah, that’s is one thing about this group, by the way, we have some ism.

Erin Melvin 43:25

Toddi Norum 43:27
But they’re fun group. And, and I mean, like people in the chat, they’re super engaged, which is really awesome. Because occasionally we get diversions and just our topics and things like that, which is fun, too. It’s been a really great camaraderie of folks. And so that’s, you know, to me, that’s the real value of the group that we have here. And I, as we’re talking about this, we’re coming up on five minute mark. Like, I would love to have you guys come back and speak more about this, because I think we could just keep going.

Rachel Weiss 43:57
What I really like is that it is an organic content station, you know, I mean, we definitely have the the points that we want to hit, and we’ve got a general idea of where we’re going. But there have been so many great comments that have kind of, you know, sent us out in different directions and questions that I just really liked that organic conversation. So it’s it’s good to have a group that’s invested and interested and knowledgeable to know, you know, how to interact that way.

Toddi Norum 44:21
Right? Exactly. Just like it when it comes in here to about, you know, assessing frontline workers versus knowledge workers. And there there’s a topic we could dive into the next couple hours as well. You know, I’m looking at the core competencies for delineating you know, what a frontline worker who Yeah, while you know, how do we determine what they actually need to know or need to be able to demonstrate, again, that same thing of not knowing and doing might be two different things. And we move those assessments and really dive into maybe taking an example of someone who’s a frontline worker versus a knowledge worker, and how do we determine what they really need you to know. You know, I mean, to me that that’s what Dr. Karthik Karen was talking about

Unknown Speaker 45:04
earlier. That assessment.

Unknown Speaker 45:07

Toddi Norum 45:09
So super cool. So anything else? Because I’m sitting here chatting, but I’m, like, I’m loving hearing what you have to say. Any any final thoughts on this? before we sign off?

Rachel Weiss 45:19
My my final thought would just be that, you know, there are, there are always trends, right, and that in business and l&d and all of these different things. And I think that this is, like I said at the beginning competency models aren’t new. It’s not like it’s a 2010 thing. But I think the value that it brings, and just the connection that it brings to the organization and the

the business like success model is really key. And that’s I think, where people are getting, are figuring it out now. And so I love that there are so many different businesses and so many different people within the community just kind of of all wrestling with the same issues. Maybe the business looks different, maybe the workforce looks different. But at its core, it’s still How do we know what makes a person successful? How do we know it’s going to drive the business forward, that drive the people forward, continue to develop and make it a place where not only do we get really good work done, but we have people who really enjoy doing the work and want to continue along the path with us.

Toddi Norum 46:26
That’s the point to develop people. I mean, that that’s maybe one of the things we need to think about to you know, how do we use these models to develop people, as they, you know, either are fit to do the work or have a desire?

Rachel Weiss 46:38
Yeah, it goes hand in hand for me that that the business benefit and the personal.

Erin Melvin 46:43
Mm hmm. And I think that also brings l&d sort of back into the organization. I think sometimes l&d kind of floats. If people like, What are you guys doing over there? often happens, right? And they kind of can float away. They’re like, I want to build this because they love doing what they’re doing. But the competency as was saying earlier, this is a backbone for your organization. And so when you got l&d tapped into that, and HR tapped into that you’re all sort of coming off of these core competencies, and that makes what l&d doing, if that’s a strong connection more meaningful, and I think l&d supports the competencies, and the competencies are that are blind to the organization, not to l&d. l&d is work supports that to do what Rachel saying is build the organization and the people who work there to push the business goals forward. That’s where it all comes down to so it’s got business value, and it’s got value for the employees. And it’s a really great model to work on. But I think people, people are a little bit nervous at the beginning. Because this work. It’s it’s a it’s a project and it should be managed as such, but I think that it brings so much more value to

sometimes little bit boring compliance training kind of thing. You know, like, Oh, really? Do I have to do this? Again, I’m an LED. That’s what I do. But the competency brings it back to the employee and makes it personal. And take something.

Rachel Weiss 48:14
Yeah, it’s not just what can I do for the business? You know, it’s how am I benefiting from this as well, like there were so I think our, our interpersonal and business, and all of that is just so intertwined at this point that, you know, going to work, I absolutely want to have a really strong impact on the business. But I also kind of want to use it as a way to make myself a better person to, yeah, and it can be it does, it’s not mutually exclusive, it can absolutely work in tandem.

Toddi Norum 48:41
I’m always kind of jealous when I see what the engineers get to do as part of

my own organization, I think we’ve done a really good job of translating the goals of the business through there, and you’re planning down to what we actually do in l&d. Hi, so I’m thumbs up to them, for sure, the whole.

So I guess we’re at the top of the hour, this has been super fun. And I just want to, like, talk forever on this. So But please, consider coming back. Um, the other thing too, is put your contact information if you would, in the chat box, so that you know, folks know how to reach out to you. You know, I don’t know how much consulting you might do in this area. But that’s totally fair to put that out there and say people can contact you. So the big part of what we do and to VC is we make a lot of good referrals to each other. You know, and if you’re not part of our, our Slack channel, I can send you a link on that to our Slack channel is a space where we have multiple channels where we can reach out to others and ask for help, you know,

all kinds of cool stuff. Wonderful. I would love to be Yeah, same here because we really would love to have you engage some more and keep the conversation going.

And sign off and if

you’re joining me I’m finally glad I got my sound back and haven’t dropped up one today.

Erin Melvin 50:00
care Bye Bye. Have a good day. Bye. Thank you.