Competency Models and L&D

Our Competency Models Playlist featured three guests: Rachel Weiss from Oscar Health Insurance, Erin Melvin from Lambda Solutions, and Host Toddi Norum.

The Playlist started with Rachel Weiss, who works with Competency Model frameworks by interpreting and building them around the L&D function. Rachel speaks to the importance of understanding the model architecture and why it’s important to the business. Then with her background as an L&D professional, measure competency and react to the results, and in turn furthering business goals.

Our second speaker, Erin Melvin, speaks to moving the model into the LMS. She discusses advantages of translating the competency models to the portals (LMS, HRIS) used by the business. And also discusses some best practices and potential gotchas.

Host Toddi Norum has recently been experiencing the implementation of Competency Models in her workplace, so this discussion is timely and an excellent primer for some current challenges she’s had.

This particular playlist is very suited for a podcast listen. Since there weren’t any shares, mostly discussion, it’s an excellent listening experience. However, transcripts and links to the original recording are listed below.

Podcast: Part 1

Podcast: Part 2

Session 1
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Session 2
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Transcript Session 1:

Toddi Norum 0:07
Good morning.

So welcome to TLDC this morning, I will give you a quick notice real quickly in case I drop off. It’s because I’m conserving bandwidth for our guests. And I definitely will interact with you guys in the chat box. Hi, Kara, how are you? So good morning, everybody. And as we know, sometimes our platform gives us fits. So in the interest of doing conserving bandwidth, I may just be the moderator and chat. So I am super excited today to have my guests.

So I just kind of a quick background, my own business has been doing some work in competency modeling and job architectures, which when I first encountered, I’m like, “what’s that?”

I really didn’t know what it was, how it can benefit the business, how to implement across the business, and I still don’t know as much about it, as I’d like to know. And again, it’s an topic of interest that I think a lot of us in our group really not really know that much about as well, although, I mean, it directly touches, learning and development. I mean, it gets implemented across our heads. So I think it’s a really important topic.

So we’re going to talk a little bit about that today, because I have two fabulous guests. And so I will speak first a little bit about the business impacts, and then also talk about implementation of it. So let me introduce my guests. And so ordinarily, in our playlist, oftentimes, we’ll split it into two, but we’re going to go ahead and wake up both guests in the window with us today, which is super cool, because they can talk to each other. And you guys can ask questions.

So we have Rachel Weiss and Rachel’s a customer obsessed, L&D superstar. I love that with a strong track record of creating and implementing large scale training programs worldwide. From strategy to execution management, she’s recognized for sharing best practices and driving high performance of partners around the globe. So welcome, Rachel, we’re really glad to have you.

And I hang on a second here. I’m looking for all of the rest of my notes.

Toddi Norum 2:11
But we also have Erin. Erin Melvin is actually, more focused on the implementation of systems and platforms across businesses. And so just she has a specialty in working with folks to take the competency modeling and architectures and spread those across the LM s and hrs platforms we all work with every day. So super cool. Can you guys hear me? Ok. I can hear you. Somebody wants to tell me in chat. If they can hear me then we’re all good. Echo. Thanks, Molly, OK, Echo Echo. So I’ll go on silent. So you guys don’t hear that. So anyway, I’m gonna go ahead and let Rachel start. And if you guys, you know, I have to refresh and jump back in, you’ll know what’s happening. But my guess I think we’re all good. So, Rachel, go ahead.

Rachel Weiss 2:56
Great. I’m so hey, it’s really nice to be here. Thanks for having me. talking a little bit about competency models and how they benefit the business. And so I I’ll keep an eye on the chat window. And Toddi, you can let me know too if there are any specific questions. Otherwise, I am just going to talk about what they are and how do we use them.

Ultimately, when we think about jobs, you know, the the competency model is not anything new. And it’s not anything necessarily groundbreaking. If you think about it, it really is kind of more common sense. Looking at what, you know, very specifically, what does this business need? I think that when we talk about job descriptions, and whatnot, in different businesses, there’s a lot of, of overlap and a lot of kind of generic language that happens.

And if you look at a specific business, when it comes to competency modeling, it’s really looking at what does this business need to be successful. And so it’s taking, you know, there are a lot of ways to do it, there’s some really long drawn out ways, which are, if a business has the time, it’s very valuable. But oftentimes, in our crazy world, the business won’t have the time, you know, to spend, say, nine months to a year really digging into every piece of it. And so sometimes, there’s got to be a little bit of a more rapid version that’s done. But ultimately, the the main, the main focus for this is really taking a look at:

what are the what are the most important success indicators for the business?

Where can we look at what people do that moves the business forward in different job function areas.

And so thinking about what I what I like to talk about with Competencies is really looking at workers in the business as whole people. So that, you know, instead of being able to say, you need to do this job function, this one thing, you know, we need someone who knows how to do this, X, Y, and Z, whatever functional, you know, pieces you need for that business, really looking more at a whole person.

It’s my philosophy anyway, and I think many others is that, you know, you can, we can train, you can train people on the functional aspect of doing the work for the business. But there are some things, some ways of being, I guess, if you think about these competency models, things like, you know, communication, which there can be some training for that. But the way that you look, the way we deal with conflict, you know, do we does somebody look at conflict as a healthy indicator of, you know, thought going on for the work, or is it something that people shy away from? There’s not going to be growth without conflict, we know that that’s how all good stories are right? Something has to happen to move it along. So ultimately, it’s it’s looking at, I’ve said, ultimately, a lot, I’ll try to stop that. It’s really looking at what what is the business need? And who are the types of people who are going to be most successful in the organization, so successful themselves for that development, but also obviously successful to move the business forward.

So that’s kind of general. Let’s see, I do see a question.

Methodology for creating a competency model?

So that that’s a great question. And I will say that my expertise really comes in the L&D piece of it of when I’ve worked with competency models before, the HR aspect of the business has really put that piece together. And my focus is, is that on the training components of it, I know that there are many different types of competency models out there. And so I don’t I see different ones being used, but I don’t have one that I particularly use, because I tend to come in after that’s been done and map out the L&D pieces of it. So not a great answer, because I don’t have a good answer for it. That’s where I fit in.

Okay, so Toddi, I don’t know if you’re still around if there are other questions.

I can keep going.

Toddi Norum 7:35
Okay, yes, I definitely hear

Hear me okay. All right. So, um, we talked a little bit about, you know, like, what it does for the business and kind of the things that you do?

Toddi Norum 7:49
How do we start, like with this whole process? So one of the things that, that I have had experience with this, I work with a group that about just, you know, kind of, for instance, we have a roughly around 4000 employees, we have around 3000 job titles, which, you know, like, That’s crazy. So, you know, what, what’s wrong with that? You know, why is it okay to have 3000 job titles? Why do we want to fine tune down our in our organization, what our job titles look like? And then to be able to align competencies that are very specifically associated with us? So would you want to speak to that a little bit?

Rachel Weiss 8:25
Sure. And it’s a great question, because I think if we look at

if we think about job, like career movement in the past, oftentimes, people really think like, if you’re not moving up, you’re not moving. And I think that we’ve, we’ve really gotten Oh, you know, in modern day workplaces, we’ve gotten past that you see a lot of benefits to, to working with different departments to moving laterally. So when we, if I think about a company with, I think you said like three or 4000 people and almost as many job titles. First off, I would say it clearly just dilutes what that job title means. And I would also argue that the more specific we get with job titles, it’s actually less almost less descriptive of what they’re doing. Because the job title that’s super focused like that is really in my mind, I think, focused around doing particular tasks. And competency modeling is really moving away from like, very specific tasks into more how do you approach the work? What do you need to do what makes you successful. And so I think that if I’m, you know, if I think about the new like, in my mind, a newer way of business where, for example, here, we’ve got a lot of moves that could be considered lateral, but in my mind, they’re not because you know, if you look at the job function, or a job title, there’s somewhat lateral, but there, the person going into that job is learning all new skill sets, all new tasks, different technology, all sorts of stuff. And so I think the benefits of having really clearer and

I wouldn’t necessarily say broader, but having a list of job titles that can kind of move throughout the business gives that flexibility and understanding of who can do what, so that if I in my department, if I want to start utilizing some subject matter experts are bringing some some people into the into my department who are going to really elevate our knowledge, our practices, some of the things that we do, I want to know where they’re already functioning in the department that they’re in. So having those more general job titles, not having as many job titles, as you have people to really just dilute the meaning of them allows us all to understand where people are. That’s one of the things I really like about competency models, is that, you know, you can build that the leveling within each competency framework, so to speak, but

but it should be something that can be moved around the business, because the business as a whole has said, these are the things that are important to us. For us to keep moving forward. We need to know that we are doing that we have the right people in the right places, and they’ve got the right skill sets and abilities to be successful in the business that the business environment that we’ve created here.

Unknown Speaker 11:29
I don’t know if that answers the question. I’m a little bit of a Rambler in the morning. So I apologize. This is a morning cast.

Toddi Norum 11:38
Well, so I mean, just, you know, part of what we do, and a lot of what we do is we talk, you know, stream of thought because we come here as experts, so totally fine.

That’s really important, because you’ll have a thought like, wait a minute, let me circle back to that. So okay.

Rachel Weiss 11:53
And I saw keras question. Yes, ultimately, that’s it. I have been involved with helping with that word helping the HR teams, putting those things together. But ultimately, it’s what does this mean for it from an l&d perspective for the business?

Toddi Norum 12:10
Yeah, and actually, what my experience is that it’s normally initiated by like, the talent development groups, which, you know, are usually housed in HR, you know, but it translates to talent management, talent management, talent acquisition, especially talent acquisition, you know, things like global setting pay, which I think is really interesting. And so, kind of the the trickle down effect of what happens when you perform a job architecture, I think it’s really fascinating. And I’m like, I’m just kind of been hammered by it, actually.

Yeah, I mean, I think that’s, that’s a big piece of it is, you know, I like the fact that you talked about not being specifically task based. But what does it take to get not just your job done, but the job of the team done? So it’s pretty interesting stuff.

Rachel Weiss 12:56
Sure. Yeah. And I noticed, question, another question here about what makes a framework and that is a good question. So framework, in my mind, is really all of the pieces that that you’re going to need to have in place to be able to move forward successfully with the competency model that you put together. So if we think about that, obviously, things like, you know, mapping out job roles, and that kind of stuff is important. But there’s a lot of other pieces that come in more on the HR side, but also for l&d in terms of, you know, training expectations, what’s the support that you’re going to give people in these roles? What is compensation look like? You know, if you’ve got a competency model, what do we reward? Where does the How do we determine success, you know, all of these things, these these behaviors that are that are required and rewarded from the business for doing good work, all of those things have to come into that framework. So it’s really being able to, to create a roadmap to say, the, this is what makes the business successful, here’s how we’re going to keep everybody kind of corralled into that successful space. And here’s how we’re going to continue to move them forward within that successful space. Because ultimately, if if we’re not, if we’re not successful within the business, we’re not moving the business forward. And I think it also, it also really does create for create a an energy and a

space for people to be happier and more comfortable at work because it is much clearer what is expected of you. You know, if I think about job descriptions, a lot of times it’s really focused on these are the the skills you need and the things you need to do to get this job done. But it doesn’t necessarily tell me how I’m going to be successful in the business as a whole. Because I would love to have someone who has amazing skills and is really just, you know, a shining star with the tasks that they complete. But if they’re not connected in with the the mission and the vision of the business, if they’re not connected in with our department, and what we feel is success. To be very honest, I don’t want that person that those the task and the skills is not enough. You know, it feels a little 21st century to me, you know, it’s just say this, but like really looking at that whole person in the workplace. Are you dialed into what is going to move the business forward? And I think that that’s, you know, thinking about l&d as strategic partnerships. Yes, I know, we’ve been in the 21st century for 19 years now. Thank you.

I just dated myself.

But, uh, so carefully.

Okay.

Okay, lost my train of thought. But I see another question. So I’m just going to jump in on that. So jack says, How do I start creating a framework? And there’s nothing in place currently, currently? Great question. So to get started, I can tell you that it really looks like,

again, the what you do is going to depend on how much time you have on the top priorities of the business and whatnot. But if we’re looking at creating that framework, I would say, starting with high performers within the business, what are they, you know, it could be interviewing them, shadowing them, looking at the results of their work, but really looking at what what are the high performers? What competencies do they exhibit consistently? as well as what is?

What is most important for your business? Because there are a ton of competencies. I mean, if you think about like Lohman are there they, you know, identified 67 things? Well, I’m not going to make a competency framework for 67. seas, that’s really excessive. I think one thing, one place to start, if you’re looking for thinking about how to start would be looking at those looming or combat competencies, and picking, say, 1012, eight, you know, what are your top needs for the business right now. And I think the right now is important as well, because you’re, I would not recommend building a competency framework. And then, you know, that’s what we use for the next 20 years. Obviously, this is something that is going to shift as the business shifts. Even, you know, when I think about past roles I’ve had being and I was the last place I worked. I was there five years, and the l&d the competencies, the business in five years really shifted a lot. I’m seeing that where I am now as well. So it’s something that you have to continually, you know, I would say every six months, you’re taking a peek, but really every year, does this still describe who we are. So I would start with some of those, those basic competencies that have already been identified as success indicators for business, and then looking at, which are the ones that are most key right now to move the business forward from where it is right now to where you’ve identified you might want to be and looking at to what are the what, when you think about the workforce? What are the strengths? And what are the biggest areas of opportunity, you know, in determining where where you want to make that movement, because it’s important to say, to be able to really say, yes, this is what success looks like, or sorry, the opposite. This is what this is what we’re seeing now. And this is what we want to move toward. But I think rewarding. What works really well is important, too. And so thinking about

what is what is going to be most important for the business in that time, I see that I get sidetracked by these. See that I’m Daniel said at Apple, they did case studies to understand those competencies that most successful managers had in common. That’s a really great way to start. I agree with Kara that those can often take a ton of time. If you don’t have that time though, even just looking at some some, you know, doing some roundtables, with with your team and figuring out in a more just in a in a quicker and casual way, but being able to see what are some of those things? I see other stuff people are mentioning here.

Totally thrown out.

Okay, anyway, I’ve talked a lot, I don’t know if there are other questions we have. Or if we want to engage with Aaron as well.

Erin Melvin 19:42
I wouldn’t mind saying a couple things to that, because one of the things that. So I don’t develop the competencies either. But I work with companies that do and quite often what they’ll do, and I see this very common is they’ll hire competency consultant. And so I see some people on board that say have

Toddi Norum 20:02
there certified in these sort of methodologies. And they’ll go and find somebody who’s done that and bring them on for the building of it. Because for somebody who’s outside of it to start doing that, it’s kind of a big task to sort of learn it, and it be probably easy to get into the weeds and then you’re in this like really complex thing. And it could be a really overwhelming. So if you have somebody from an external place, I mean, a lot of the people that I work with is either health and safety or occupation and industry. And so they’ll need something in that realm. So have it hiring somebody to help you do that is really useful. And also I think that to to take into what Rachel was saying, I think it’s really important to talk to the people I know, that’s really time consuming. But the advice that I keep coming up with over and over again, is go talk to the stakeholders, go talk to the people who are doing the job. And as Rachel said, the high performer, so you want the people who are, you know, you want a mere, that’s more, so you want to find out what they’re doing, but you need buy in from the people as well. And so the way to get that buy in and the desire to aspire to train into those competencies, then you need to ask them what they want as well. And the business. So in the business world, so there’s a lot of people to talk to you to ensure that you’re getting this going correctly. So yeah, I agree with what I see here.

Yeah, so I think it’s a really, it’s a really key thing that we should understand. Because there’s the monster science project for any organization to undertake. And, you know, the, the point at which you start to create this framework is, you know, like, literally, as you say, getting to buy into the business and talking to the experts and whatnot. So, I mean, how do we how do we kind of define the start of that framework? I saw that that was one of our questions on there, too, is, you know, what really makes up that framework, like, you know, hair, kind of from a mechanic’s standpoint, you know, how are we how are we going about doing this? I think that’s, that’s one of the Phaedra calm the dark art

is probably true, but how do we how do we do that? I mean, I just, you know, aside from having those conversations, how does a lie now?

Rachel Weiss 22:14
Okay. I think that, for me, when I, as I said, I have not been the one who has built the who was, you know, building it, I have been involved in it. For me, it’s it was it’s more my role is more around looking at the the leveling aspect of the competencies. And so that actually kind of connects in with a question I saw here from Eileen about measuring success against the rubric. I think that you know, what I would recommend? It sounds like actually, we’ve got people on the, the,

the chat who have more experience with actually starting to build this than I do. So keep me honest here. But I think that, uh, you know, again, figuring out so looking at those competencies, I think the first step is to Aaron’s point is just talking to the people just saying, you know, finding, finding, what is success? Who are those top performers, then that map out against what we consider success to be? and asking them a ton of questions, you know, getting into how do they deal with things? How do they respond to things? What are their thoughts about certain scenarios that you can really map out? The looking at, you know, this really long list of competencies to say, Okay, what are the what are the top ones that are the most important to move our business forward? And then from there, I think it’s looking at if we’re talking about a true framework, does our does our l&d align with that, you know, if we’re saying that these are the top competencies as a business? Are we developing people that way? If if we if we say as a business, we want these types of people that are l&d efforts don’t mirror that. That, you know,

it’s kind of a little bit of a disaster, what’s going to happen there, we’re not actually setting people up for success, or really showing people that there’s a pathway to success, that you don’t have to come in with everything we’re going to help. Right. So my my focus is really more on that l&d piece. And so it certainly makes sure that l&d matches, or supports, at least, what you’ve said, is the most important business competencies for these roles. And then I would look at the reward structure, you know, are we are there?

We say that these are the things that we value the most, does our reward structure mirror that as well, you know, it’s, I think a lot of the concept of the framework is really just making sure that all of your ducks are in a row that all of everything lines up to create one very clear path forward towards success.

Erin Melvin 24:50
Yeah. And, you know,

Toddi Norum 24:52
I’ll add something to that as well to his competency framework. And in the way I think we’re talking about it here is, is a company culture that you’re building, I really see it as kind of a backbone. And earlier, it was saying, like, the more I The more I think about this and talk about it, the more I like it, because it’s exciting. And you’re building a structure for your company. That’s either leadership, this is how our leaders are. And this is how you are in this role. So you might have a leadership competency set, you may have a technical competency, so each role has specific jobs, or tasks or skills that they need to do. And so you’re building that into the company, and then it becomes a mode of communication, either between employee and manager, but also between like, recruitment, we were talking about that earlier. So how do you want to recruit people, these are the things that are important to us. And so earlier is, as Rachel was saying, and I really agree with this is that you might have somebody who’s a shining star, but they don’t fit into that sort of leadership or company or organizational competency set. They’re not a fit. And so we need to take a look at that. So it’s a way of either matching people when you’re bringing them in, or getting people to be in the right space while they’re in there and giving them something to aspire to. So when you’re thinking about that building a company competency framework has a beginning, step back and ask a high senior management level, what do we want to do with this? What is our goal with this because it is a big project. And it’s a worthwhile project. But you if you don’t have that high goal, like what is my outcome? In five years, we’ve built this, we want to be here that aim towards that and then build your competency framework in that direction. I think that’s my thinking.

Yeah. Can you hear me? Okay?

Unknown Speaker 26:45
Yeah,

Toddi Norum 26:45
yes. So one of the things that will fascinates me about this activity in particular is how you can take what you build as a framework for maybe one business area, one business unit, maybe its sales, maybe it’s, you know, support, then translate that to another organization, because you’ve really built like these core competencies that have, you know, specific skill sets and needs that help you hire. I mean, I just That to me is like, like creating that template that allows you to leverage what you gained across all the other organization or business units in your in your group. And I just, you know, I think that’s an interesting topic. Because want to speak to that a little bit. And actually, just letting you know, we actually have a ton of questions in the question queue down here as well. So we can jump in there.

But yeah, go ahead, we may have answered some of those already.

I might start by answering that just by saying that, it’s, it’s probably wise to start with a small group. So pick one that’s either most urgent or most willing, if this is a new project. And just in that sense of you know, with working with technology is MVP, even start with something small and test sit out, do a pilot, because you’ll find out a lot of things when you do that. And you might want to adjust and before you set things in stone, which we don’t really do anymore, but because we have to keep moving, as Rachel had mentioned earlier, which I think is really important. But it’s to test that out, and then see how you do it. The other part of that is I think of competencies is a tool of communication. And so once that’s been successful, or once you’ve got that, you need some kind of level of internal marketing, or communication to let the organization know that we’re heading in this direction. This is some of the results that we’ve gotten from this team, hurrah. You know, like, build it up, get marketing involved in that. And then you know, you’ve got buy in and then maybe even ask, Hey, I want to do this. And then you start with the next team. And I think that becomes both an organic and structured ways that can fit together as you build forward. And, again, I’m gonna go back to that buyer, because that becomes more and more important. originals mentioned this, and in my research and work with us, what I see is, we don’t want to sort of like push things down onto people anymore, the workplace has really changed, we want people to reach up and grab. And so when you’ve got good internal communication, and people and by and people are going to say, hey, I want to try that out, because I want to learn these skills, and I want to get on that program. And I want to grow as an employee. That’s the ideal situation where you’ve got people reaching out for it. So I think it’s a, you really have to kind of like massage your people into enjoying this process, or they’ll feel that they’ve been put on. And this might not be successful, as successful as you want. But it’s over, do you think, I

Rachel Weiss 29:43
totally agree, by and I think is always key. And I think that to one of the ways to work that I love that massage your people?

get them excited about it. I think that one of the ways to do that is really to take a look at what does this mean for you? I mean, we’re all into, you know, what does this mean for me? So one of the things that it means is really that a clear idea of who you are, how you embody the culture of this workplace? And why, to Tony’s point, in terms of thinking about moving around, I mean, why any department in this business would want to work with you would want to have you here, you know, it, it actually, I think really makes it makes people more marketable, even just within you know, within the business, because everyone’s kind of speaking that same language of what success looks like of what, what it means to say, yes, you know, this person is functioning at the level that we need them right now for this role. And so it’s an easier map to say, you know, more so than I think when I think more task based of like, you know, I, I completed five learnings and they got good reviews, well, now I completed 70 learnings and they got reviews and nine new, you know, that that’s not necessarily our benchmark for how you’re progressing within a role, you know, that output? Isn’t the measure of that it is that are you? Are you embodying what we want this company to be, and doing things well? How does that actually are? And I would love to know, from you how, you know, Todd, he was talking about at the beginning, how this maps into like, an lm s, or an HR is what are like the technical implications, because that is completely foreign to me. You know, so like, how does that connect? And I would love to know,

Toddi Norum 31:34
yeah, you know what, I’m going to step back? And I’ll answer that question. But I want to step back a little bit, because I do believe that competencies, and setting up competency framework is a long view big projects. And it’s worthwhile. But I think, again, going back to senior management, is this something that we want to do? Like, where are we going to be in five years around this? And if there’s a goal that fits there, then go forth and do this project? Because I think it’s worthwhile. And a part of that initial conversation is asking yourself, what technologies do we have on board? And what Where can we put this and so I mostly work with learning management system that has an HR component. And so our clients who use that the HR component of our learning management system, because it’s an enterprise solution, will pick up the competencies because they see it as a whole and, and what they’re using their learning management system for largely would be internal training at that level, so know your technology. So earlier, I was talking about having a competency consultant to assist. That’s a very common element that I’ve been working with. And then you have your technology consultant, which is me at our company. And still, they’ll say, Hey, we want to set up competencies and all set up a series of calls with them and go through what they’re doing. I want to really say I think that it’s smart to know your technology before you start on your projects. Because Because my work is largely an implementation, I see a couple different scenarios happening. One is people come in with a setup idea. And then they arrive and they see the technology and they’re like, I want it to do this. And I have to sit there in that uncomfortable space sometimes ago. Well, currently, we can do this. If you know and in technology, we often say with time and money, you can do anything. But how much time and money do you want to invest in new technology, building new technology, or acquiring new technology? Or are you willing at this time to phase out and, and just know that today, we can do this next year, if we invest x and time, we can make this happen as well. So know your outcomes in a vague sense, know your technology, and then start to build into it. So that’s the Vegas high level of planning this out and get that technology consultant involved and possible, get them on the line with your competency consultants, so they can talk that language, and then you’ve got the organization. So it’s almost a party of three, that you’re getting together to make that happen. And then you can start crafting your framework in a way that fits the technology that you currently have. Or you can go shopping for technology that suits your requirements.

With that, I also want you to think about, again, it’s always the end goal, start with the end in mind, what are you trying to achieve at the end? And how are you going to get to that space, because again, I see a lot of people getting caught up in the weeds over here in the middle. And I think sometimes my job is to be like, that’s great. Let’s put that in the parking lot and talk about it next year. Because right now we need to stay focused on getting this launched out.

So the technology that I work with, and I’ll speak with it vaguely cuz i think it’s it’s pretty standard. But you’ll have like a competency framework where you can have parent and child competency. And so when we were talking about framework earlier, I see this is very common. So you might have leadership, leadership may have five major components. But under each particular component, there’s five more. So you can have a parent competency, and then you can have your child’s competencies, and each one of those may go to a third level. I like I like I think earlier, Rachel had mentioned keep it simple in that sense, don’t go for 67 go for 10. Like pot, try something that’s manageable at the beginning, if you want to grow, grow, move into it. So then you’ve got these competencies, and you can set up the idea where if I want to be competent in this one main competency, I need to complete all five of these to make that happen. And so that is sort of like it aggregates into that completion.

Another part of that, so you’ve got the framework, and then you’re putting everything in their it learning management system, when you can often do is touch a course as as an assessment, completion. So if I finish this course, when I finished this quiz, I have determined that then this competency, you are now competent in this skill, or enterprise solution also has a lot of space for assessment and management around that because it’s really a relationship between a manager and an employee, more often than not. And so quite often also, because it might be in industry, they have to have an assessment on the field. So the so it’s offline, they’ll go out, and they’ll do the assessment. And then you can also upload a piece of evidence that’s like really physical here, put a piece of paper into a computer, but you can upload files or something like that, or videos or images or whatever it is to show proof that this person has completed this and then check off the competency in, in our technology, it would be a learning plan, so the competencies would reside there. And then you could check it off. And if you wanted to take that

HR component a little bit further, you can swing them down into appraisals, and attach goals and everything. So it’s actually a really robust system to pull it all together.

Now, I’m going to add one more piece to that just because I think it’s a whole story. because quite often we think, okay, we’re done, you’re not done. That’s only half of the story. As far as I’m concerned. The other half of the story is reporting out onto this. So you’ve got your competencies, framework array, you’ve got your people, and they’re showing whether they’ve done the learning they’ve done out in the field, they’ve done that, and other organizations will go back to that sort of senior management, why are we doing this, we go back to those guys and say, I’ve got a report that says on team, a 67% of the people are proficient in these competencies, what’s the next step. And now I can then take an action item back into the team and say we need to train on this and, and design. And this also goes back to what Rachel was saying earlier, specifically focused training for those people to fill in the gaps. And that’s really a big part of what this is all about or recruitment. It looks like we need somebody who is good at x or y. And now I’m going to go to HR and I’m going to hire those people. So the reporting aspect of that technology solution, I think is essential. What information do you want to get out of it? How does that measure your success, which we’ve been talking about? quite a bit in this hour? And how do you prove that? And then what’s the action item out of that? Because it’s not like, yeah, we’re done, you’re not done, what’s the next step is then you know, maybe we grow our competencies, you get 100% competent workforce, awesome. Now grow your competency list and add five more, and then you can build it out like that. So. So that’s pretty high level on that. I don’t know if there’s any more questions that I could speak to more specifically.

Rachel Weiss 39:09
I like that, I’ll just chime in real quickly, I like that idea of bringing of thinking about how it connects the entire system, you know, that idea of like, for me as a hiring manager. This is definitely one of the things I do is look at my team, you know, map, map my team out on our own competency, you know, competency map to see, okay, where are my team gaps, so that when I’m recruiting, it really does give me a good sense of not just like I need someone who, you know, who knows how to use this piece of technology that, you know, Articulate Storyline, or someone who’s good at learning, you know, whatever, it’s a broader, a broader way for me to really tap into, okay, these are our strengths, here are the spaces where we still need that full, you know, we need strength to really map out our whole team. And that’s what we want to recruit for. Because in my mind, then as I’m recruiting for those, those gaps, those people are going to come in with those competencies and be able to kind of help level up the entire team. And then, of course, hopefully, my l&d initiatives match what you know, what the competencies are saying is most important for the business.

I think that if we’re not, you know, it would be very cruel in my mind, for a business to create this competency model, and really be pushing toward that, especially with rewards recognition, all of that, and not have the development tools to support it. It’s kind of just like giving one half of a puzzle, you know, that if you’ve got the expectation, you’ve got to have the support to match that to help people reach that.

Toddi Norum 40:48
Mm hmm. And Rachel, I, I totally agree with you. And I think this is, in my mind, one of the reasons why you would develop this, but also, you know, to go back to something I really want to drive home is make a plan and make a big plan. And, and know what you want to get out of this. And as you start down the journey of building out your competency framework, you’ll find like we have all found here, that it’s, it’s awesome. And there’s a lot you could do with that. And you know, as I was thinking about it, again, you get this, this reporting out of it, that can actually feed back into so many other business units within the system. So if you’ve got outward marketing, and so I work at a, you know, Software as a Service, SAS model company, and a lot of the clients that I work with might have a similar thing. And so what people want is, I want to know, the people that I’m going to work with when I’m working with your company have the skills. And so now you’ve got a competency framework and training framework, but you also have a way of marketing out to the universe, how awesome you and your team are because you are competent in these levels. And in this world, and we spoke into this a little bit like relationship is the is the currency now. And those sort of competencies are often around building good people skills and relationship skills. And so if I’m trying to build relationship with external clients, then I want to know that the people that I’m working with are competent. And so it becomes this, this really interesting tool that has a lot of spread and a lot of communication out to other places.

Rachel Weiss 42:20
Yeah, and I think it’s, it’s also interesting and helpful to me to think about different roles, you know, whether it’s job titles, whatever, but where, where do you land on that competency map, you know, that proficiency for this competency is going to look different at different levels. When I talked about conflict management before, you know, for for more of an entry level role. My the competency I’m looking for may just be to recognize that conflict is healthy and not shy away from it, or push back on it, you know, maybe that’s just like the very beginning. Whereas once I’m getting into my senior leadership, it should be helping to, you know, helping others to voice that’s seeking out how to help we help really manage conflict, you know, and helping others. So, I mean, there is like a spectrum, and you can kind of map out, at what level, do I expect these behaviors, and then it allows people to, if you can really give them some good examples. In my mind, that’s also something that I always like to include is here, competencies, but what does this look like, you know, for us in our business, right now, what does this look like? So then it gives me even as an employee a chance to say like, okay, I can see that I am right now, really, in this range, you know, I want to be at this level, in a year’s time in two years time, you know, so how am I going to start developing myself to match what the business wants and needs and says, This is what good looks like for us? Or this is what great looks like for us? And, and then I also want to I just saw a plus one there. And I’m going to do a plus one as well. I think one of the one of the ways that I’ve been able to have an impact, the most impact on my learning and development and training teams has really been around that. That critical aspect, as you say, of reporting out to those key stakeholders, because they’re oftentimes, l&d and operations can sometimes be in a little bit of conflict. Truthfully, they’re not, but it can feel that way. And so I think that, you know, being able to all I think one of the best ways for l&d to always continually prove its value is to prove its value, meaning always sharing back out with stakeholders. And then being honest, I mean, there are times where I have had to share like, Hey, you know, when I when I, when we worked to this program out, these were the success measures we were looking for, this is what we were expecting, it’s not exactly what happens, we’re going to go back, you know, always being clear about what you’re doing. So that, that people have that faith in you as a real person. But looking at

it, what does that? What does that mean, for Ellen d? How do we show ourselves as true performance consultants to the business because I think that, you know, in the past training tends to be more of like a touchy feely like, oh, or just, they’re just taking a test, you know, whatever. And I think we’re really moving so far beyond that into competencies into looking at the behaviors and the business impact that our learning programs are having on the with those behaviors that we’re driving is so important to share out, because that’s how you’re going to get the buy in. And that’s how you’re going to get the value to continue moving forward.

Toddi Norum 45:38
Right. And I think that I’m going to, I’m going to tie that actually directly into the technology as well. So the the platform that I’m working with, allows you to so the competencies reside in what we call learning plans, and you can set up learning plans for that the end user, the learner can determine so it could be like I’m reaching out and I saying I would like to move into management, I want to learn these skills. And so I can create my own learning plan with those competencies. It can, you can also allow the manager to create that you can set up both. So you can sit down with your manager like in our company, we do a one to one weekly. And I might say hey, I want to do this. So the manager could say, Great, I want you to learn these five things. So I’m going to create a learning plan for you. And then in the next six months, let’s see where you get with that. And that can also, like I said earlier be drawn into an appraisal or your annual review or what however that works. So it allows for that sense of either top down if that’s what it needs are in that sense of like nourishing growth within the company, but also creating an avenue for for the learner to self create their own learning path, which I think is really important. A lot of companies right now. And that sets it up. So

I think there was something else but I forgotten anyways. Yes, that answers I think a little bit what Rachel was saying, like the technology does match that requirements.

Rachel Weiss 47:04
And I love that the way you’re setting it up of really giving people the autonomy and the power to say, this is what I want to do. Let me work with my manager, let me look at the resources that are available to me through the company, you know, training platform and figure out how to make this happen.

Unknown Speaker 47:21
Yeah, yeah.

Toddi Norum 47:26
Yeah, questions. See?

I right. Look at this. So Cara asks a question, what is l&d his role in interpreting a competency model to update and refine existing models?

I’m just going to think about that for a second.

Depending on the company that you’re in, and how much how much l&d like what, what the impact is, but I think it really is about looking at

it’s a it’s a communication, it’s a collaboration. So you need to work really closely, you want to be able to build the right training materials for the right people at the right time. And I think that breaking out, a competency model allows you to do targeted training. And again, having that good reporting element allows you to, I mean, part of our solution is a really robust reporting application. And so we’ve built it out. So I can say, Show me by department, show me by individual, show me by manager, what these competencies are. And so when I look at that, then I can see that maybe I’m just going to say an example, maybe sales in this department or not, office isn’t doing so well on this one competency, that I might actually develop some materials to send to that sales team over there. And that is available for everybody. But it’s about more targeted training, as opposed to what used to be more of like, here’s a staff training day and everyone’s life. Because I don’t know, I don’t care about operations, or I don’t care about this, you know, like things that I don’t know anything about, I want to know what I need to know. And so I think a good competency framework in learning and development gives you targeted training, which means you have engaged learners. And I think that’s the goal that

Rachel Weiss 49:20
Absolutely, I mean, this is really like adult learning theory, one on one, right? You want people to be interested in invested and be able to very clearly see how what I am learning in this program is going to affect the job that I’m doing. You know, how I show up in the business, all of this. And so, I love that aspect of it of really being able to clearly tie this course, not only Well, you know, completing this course, or doing following this learning path will not just allow you to, you know, increase your metrics or you know, whatever these like hard, tangible things are, but there’s also that career path benefit to it. Because if you don’t have that end to end vision, you do lose that buy in, if I’m going to spend my time and my energy in your in your l&d courses, and I’m, you know, I’m doing something, what’s the payoff? What’s in it for me, you know, and so I think that that is a huge piece of why that end to end matters.

Toddi Norum 50:21
Mm hmm. And to tag onto that, Rachel, I think that,

again, we’re we’re in a work world where we want employees who have more agency who have like who are think for themselves who reach out and do things, we just need that the world requires that more. And so we need to set up competency modeling and l&d offerings that allow people to have that agency and walk away from that job and say, while I was at this role, I learned XY and Z that factors into job satisfaction very, very highly these days. And so you have that is a carrot within itself. If it’s if it’s presented, well,

Rachel Weiss 51:03
that’s a great call out, you know, that it’s not just learning how to be successful with the technology and the product and exactly what we’re doing right here in this business. But there is that transferable skill set, you know that I keep going back to conflict management, just because it’s an easy one, you know, but thinking about that even it means certain leadership competencies, working with pure communication, you know, all of these things, but if I’ve, if I’ve got a good attitude about conflict management, and I have some really good tools to be able to speak, speak my mind in a way that fits the culture of the business, and everyone is willing to listen, that’s something that can absolutely be taken anywhere, you know. And so I think, to your point, like, with how, just with, with where we are in the business, what we expect from people now at work, I think, is definitely different. And the fact that we often see people, you know, are not with the same company more than a few years. So if the case how are how are we? How are we tailoring our programming, our l&d programming and maybe competency pieces to? How are we tailoring that to the reality of the world to what people want? So that they can take those, those skill sets anywhere if they desire? Mm hmm.

Unknown Speaker 52:24
I’m just looking at this. Me too.

Unknown Speaker 52:31
Great points.

Erin Melvin 52:33
Yeah, I agree. I think we’re it’s a, it’s an

Toddi Norum 52:38
it’s a new world of work. And the more technical, the more automated and all of that it becomes more AI comes into it, then we really need to, to provide these spaces for people where and then those soft skills, I think we even soft skills that are so essential to the workplace conflict manage it is really, really important. And that would be people watch, like, when you recruiting people, you can say like, we’ve got this great training program, and we’re going to get you going. And again, sort of back to that reporting. And the idea is that we’ve also developed like the ability for like the learner to have this sort of report that belongs to them now. And when they walk away, they’re like, I accomplish this. So is either an exit interview or, or moving into the next place, it really sort of bolsters up that company, and I see a lot of tech companies, I’m in Vancouver. And there’s a lot of tech companies here and and recruitment is big, and they want people to come in. And so they invite people, I go to a lot of meetups and I get to see a lot of different offices, but they have their values quite often on the wall. So these competencies may be like a core value set of the company. And not only am I going to learn about that sort of in my white l&d, but I also see it on the wall. And so others come into the office, they’re like, Oh, this is what this company is all about. And it’s loud and proud. And it’s really, really good. And it’s that constant sort of knowledge boosting idea that, you know, you’ve got out of l&d, but I see it not just online, but I see it everywhere where I go, and that helps people see, I understand what this company is about. And I want to work with these people. So you can really draw it out as well to make that happen.

Oh, I think we just lost Rachel for a minute there.

Unknown Speaker 54:31
Tony, I can’t hear you. I think are we

Erin Melvin 54:36
in a sec?

Toddi Norum 54:39
Bitly back?

Oh, yeah, Tony, I think we’ve, you’re on mute, maybe or?

Unknown Speaker 54:54
No, you’ve.

Rachel Weiss 54:56
And I lost the last 30 seconds. I’m not really sure where we ended up. I know,

Toddi Norum 55:02
I got distracted by looking at. Um, yeah, just sort of the idea that we could pull those competencies out. And it becomes part of the culture. So it was sort of circling back around to that.

Rachel Weiss 55:13
Yeah, yes. So that that I was going to dovetail on that as well. Because as we were building, so when I came into my current role, there was not a lot of learning technology yet. So we were actually in the process right now of implementing our first lm s. And one of the things that I spoke to my team about that was really important to me, was that the I think the reporting function of thinking about

having a really clear and nice transcript that follows the employees so that and obviously, that wouldn’t necessarily be outside of the business, but thinking about staying within the company, moving laterally, moving up whatever it is, but being able to, to say, like I took these courses, and these are going to be applicable to my success here, no matter where I am. And also even just as a way, it, you know, it can be somewhat of a differentiator when you’re looking to bring in new people into a department to see okay, what, again, like, let’s look at the transcript. Let’s see, you know, how have you taken advantage of what l&d is offering for you? Mm hmm. I’m looking, yes. So I like that I, the, with the transcript, we’re actually utilizing some different certifications, to almost, I think, to what you’re talking about this micro credential. So we were looking at a shared services model. So there are times in our business, there’s some seasonality to it. So there are times when one team, say for two to three months needs an extra 20 people that they don’t need the rest of the year. So how can l&d support in that with creating proactively, you know, working with that team to create a little certification or micro credentialing, you know, that says, I, I’ve learned the basics of this, I you know, I’m the right fit, I already have a sense of what we’re talking about for you to be able to take me over onto your team with minimal additional training, shows interest, it shows, competency, you know all of that. So for me that I think that that is going to be something that’s going to be really important for us to be pushing in our department around around this business, because it is new here. This idea of your transcripts really being a highlight of who you who you are in the company and what you can do.

Toddi Norum 57:40
Mm hmm. To go along with that just sort of micro credentials can give you that sense of not not full gamification, but the idea of like, there’s many rewards as you go along. And so there’s a sense of, of leveling up achieving. And I think people that’s important too. I love getting bad. I’m, I’m a little bit of a nerd like that. But I totally love I got a badge. And I it doesn’t matter how old I am. It works for me. And so it’s got to work for other people. And I think that when I get like a little certificate or something, I feel proud of myself. Yeah.

Rachel Weiss 58:17
I’m so glad to hear you say that. Because that’s what we’re in the midst of right now is designing our badges. We marketing. So the look really cool, making stickers, all sorts of stuff, to really get everyone pumped up about what this could mean for them.

Toddi Norum 58:30
Yeah, yeah. And that’s what it is. That’s the company culture that’s like, we together are building this up together. And it’s like, hey, like marketing’s got like, you know, 87%, let’s make that 95 by the end of this year, and then that’s a way of also setting concrete goals, and achieving them, and getting people to work together towards that. And I think that people crave that people a lot of people do so they that works to achieve those original goals that we’re talking at the outset. Like the company has a goal. How do we trickle that down to the rank and file on the floor to make sure that they’re also getting that buy in and saying yeah, I want that and I’m going to get it through my badges and my micro credentials and my certificates and feeling feeling proud of myself for what I’ve done and having the language I am confident in X y&z

Unknown Speaker 59:22
So, so I think we got a cut out soon.

Toddi Norum 59:26
Let’s see bad. I’ve been enjoying this conversation a lot.

Erin Melvin 59:33
Thanks, everybody.

Unknown Speaker 59:35
cash.

Rachel Weiss 59:38
Okay, we will come back, please.

Toddi Norum 59:41
Yeah, I will absolutely be back. I want to

Unknown Speaker 59:45
see if you can get the sound go in.

Unknown Speaker 59:48
Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 59:52
All right.

Toddi Norum 59:56
Okay, so I wonder if maybe Tony won’t be able to say say goodbye. But we can do that. What for having me on today. I really enjoyed meeting Rachel and tidy and your great questions. I’m such an engaged audience. I really appreciate that so much. So what a What a pleasure to be here today.

Rachel Weiss 1:00:15
I agree. And it’s, it’s really cool to see different, you know, people in different areas, different geographic locations, different areas of business, all of that stuff. And show I think it to me is one of those really nice benefits, like for me with Alan D and thinking about how like, kind of brings everybody together and that there are you know, there are certain things that have to happen very functionally for a business and I definitely get that but there are also so many things that are really just so broad and needed. You know, when we think about competencies in the ways that l&d can really support that makes me so excited.

Erin Melvin 1:00:56
Awesome.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:58
All right.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:00
Taking a break


Transcript Session 2:

Toddi Norum 0:08
Yay, we made it back on. I hoping my guests can get back on. Well, I’m looking at my registered attendees. So it looks like we’ve got about 12 people that have come back from are like 60 that we had before. And it’s all with my my awesome folks that I totally love. Hi, Kara. Hi, Molly. I john, like Zacks here with us, Avi obbies, my coworker, so I’m really excited to have obby with us. So yay. So everybody jump in and start saying hi, and asking questions. And so we have the answer question piece down here on the bottom of your screen. So as we go through this, please, please feel free to ask questions of our guests. And we’ll monitor this. So if any of you guys were with us on the last cast, you know that Todd, he had major technical difficulties, and with the silent host. And I have totally learned the I have amazing guests because they can just carry it all on their own, and they didn’t need me. So all good, we’re going to continue because we were having such an amazing conversation before. So I’ll just introduce this really quickly. in case anybody wasn’t part of our last session, we are talking about competency modeling, job architecture, the value of this to the business. And so Rachel’s got a lot of experience with that. And Aaron actually is our expert in translating like the completed models into technology. And so we’re really eager to hear from her as well. Because if any of you guys know me, I’m like kind of a tech guru. And I’m the elements manager for my company. And so you know, we’re we participated in this competency modeling project in my workplace. And I’m thinking all right now how does that translate into the LM s? And then and so in our last conversation, we were talking about career advancement, and how to really engage folks in direct kind of self directing their career advancement. And the platform can help with that. So anyway, I’m really eager to turn it back over to my ladies, because we have the best conversations. Let’s just rock on.

Erin Melvin 2:13
Yeah, so it’s a specific? Hmm, there’s lots of ways that I can sort of talk about getting into the learning management system, was there a specific space that you’d like us to sort of start in that or?

Toddi Norum 2:26
Well, one of the areas that I think is really interesting is, first of all, how do we build out like career paths for people within the elements that aren’t just about acknowledging skill sets? Or just, you know, going through videos and saying, hey, I’ve completed us, because I think we all see things in icon window, we can have some content, pardon my jet Russell.

We, they have amazing content, and they offer like certifications online, when you complete it yet some of them have, you know, like in line assessments, you know, to be able to demonstrate that you’ve actually understood the information that you get, but how can we take the competency modeling to be able to line out career paths and career progression for people and translate that into technology in a way that’s engaging? So they know that they can go and kind of self direct? Yeah.

Erin Melvin 3:17
Yeah, absolutely. I’m going to talk about that first, from an administrators perspective. And then I’ll sort of swing that around maybe and talk a little bit about what the end user will experience. And I will start with administrators, because that’s usually where I have the people that I work with, and the people who are setting up the the framework. So again, going back to the technology that we use, because it’s an enterprise learning management system, and it has this HR component that has a competencies, and it also has the ability to set apart other hierarchies within the system. So we’re looking at the language they would use would be organizations that positions. So you could set up an organization like a department and a position like these rules that we’re talking about. And so there’s all these different components that come together. So we’ve got our competency framework resides here. And that’s a nested option if you want, and then you’ve got these position and organization frameworks. What that means is that I can, once I set up my competency framework, I can say, these were talking earlier about, say like overall or leadership or core core competencies. So this is something that everyone in the company needs when they onboard, or maybe annually, we need to to have this. And so we can set up a competency. That’s all in like, everybody has to take this, when the technology also has the ability to set up a certification in the sense that if it is something that you need to revisit every year, then all the notifications will go out and say, Hey, everybody in the company, please come back and do this video, or we’ve updated it, and we need you to do this, then you can also target these positions. So I’m setting this up in my technology. So I can say everybody who’s in marketing needs to take these courses. And so once you set that up, you can in your learning plan, you can say,

assign this learning plan, assign the competencies to the people in the position to this learning plan. So if I assign that learning plan to everybody in marketing, they’re just going to get all the competencies that are assigned to that position, or the organization. So there’s lots of different, it’s a big build at the beginning. But again, the idea is that if you’re working with like thousands of people on a structure, which is what these people often are, we’re but also automating that structure as well, which is, makes a lot of people happy when it’s automated, right? Because you’re taking a lot of manual labor off of their hands. Now, that’s the administrators dream, right? To make it easy for myself. And then the end user, how’s it different kind of experience will the end user can come in, and they don’t have to look at like, if I’m a marketing, I don’t have to look at sis ops trainings, because that doesn’t mean anything to me. And I don’t want to see it. So I might even have my own dashboard, that might highlight something that’s new, say, hey, we’ve got this new course on conflict management, because I like that too. So just to pick up Rachel’s face there. So. And one of the new sort of updates for this technology allows you to have these sort of banners. And so I log into the LM s, and I can say, oh, new course on conflict management, take this and get your badge or your micro credential, or all these sort of like sort of ideas. And that click into it. And I take that. And again, that’s one of those things that you can set up with our technology, it could be a video, it could be a quiz, it could also be so they have is like a seminar type structure, which is almost event planning. And so what you could do is create that face to face component to it, which is we’re saying a lot of this would be

sort of in the field or offline, its way of managing it. And so they could see that there.

And then what you could do is then have your assessor or your manager, whoever who needs to do that come in, and then check off what you’ve done. And then you would have a record of that through your record of learning. So you’re always there’s nothing ever hidden from you as a learner. And there’s nothing ever hidden from either the administrator or the manager, it’s all very clear how it’s set up. And so the communication is there.

Toddi Norum 7:34
Yeah. Oh, I’m sorry.

Erin Melvin 7:38
I might just add one more thing to that. And then yeah, sorry, cuz it’s all these ideas, I think, also to speak to that, because I think one of the questions that Tony was asking is sort of like that user experience, and how do we set that up. And this idea of a lot of the clients that I’ve worked with, do you have different structures, and so they’ll have those management driven, or technical role driven

competencies that you sometimes actually have to complete that training before you get on the floor. And then there’ll be more of the Career Development items that might be more of a, I’m reaching up and grabbing that training and moving forward with it. And so the technology allows for however you want to make that happen. And quite often, what I see which I like to is that they’ll have an idea, client will a will have an idea when they come in and see what the technology goes, that’s actually a really good idea. And they change their or their plans, because they didn’t think that that could be a thing. And that actually opens up the program for them a little bit, which, that’s always my favorite kind of day at work. You know, the technology inspires growth by so

Rachel Weiss 8:48
totally. And that’s actually a good, a good segue, because I was also thinking about that end user experience and where you know, where everything aligns. Because one of the things that we’ve done, as we’ve started building, our, our learning framework, I guess, is that, you know, there are certain pieces to your point, Aaron that are functional, and kind of not, they’re not, they’re mandatory, I’ll just say it, right? Like, you gotta take this, if you want to, you know, stay in this role and be successful in this role. These are the courses you take. But then we’ve also built in this additional layer above, that is more for that the person who’s thinks like, what do you know, what competencies what they need to be successful in this department? What do they do in this department? How does the competencies that I’m already good at translate to a role in these other departments, so kind of giving them that, that autonomy to you know, to use it as they wish, so maybe I already know I want to go here, I’m just gonna take all the courses for that I’m going to get my micro certification, my badges, all that stuff, and be ready, you know, when the time comes, that I can be the shining star? And others maybe I just want to know a little bit, what did they do? What did they do? What did they do so really being able to give that autonomy to the learner, that, and I think we all recognize that if you think about even just when you went to, you know, if you go to college, you’ve got your required courses, and you’ve got your electives, you know, it’s the same thing, really being able to, to architect your learning path, or from our end, architects, or engineering learning paths that are broad enough or clear enough for people to know, okay, these are my must haves, and these are, what now it’s open for me. And then also to speak, that the the reporting piece, and the the,

the way that we’re assessing is really important to me, as well. And so technologically speaking, there have been so many new advancements and different ways of doing things recently that have really affected how we are developing our content in our programming, to the point where, you know, for certain competencies, there are now technological pieces where you can give them a scenario, and they can record their response and send that back for someone to you know, what I mean? So things like that, where it isn’t just, can you answer questions on a test? That is not that that is not one valuable way to assess people, it’s clearly not the only way. And when it comes to things like conflict management, things like influencing up, you know, I don’t, oftentimes, if I’m giving you a multiple choice or fill in, like, you know, that doesn’t necessarily tell me that you actually know how to do it. There’s so many times where you can know the textbook definition, you know what the right answer is, but it doesn’t mean if you had to actually say that out loud, or, or do that, you know, with, with someone on the phone, or whatever it is that you can do that. So knowing and doing really are two different things. And I think that that’s where our our assessment has to, has to get strong, you know, is is being able to show the doing, because that’s where we’ll bring the value to the business to say like, okay, it’s not just that they took a test, like I actually heard them explain this concept, the way they would explain it to a customer or whatever it is. And it was really good, you know, that kind of thing.

Erin Melvin 12:21
Yeah, you know, I my

Toddi Norum 12:26
observation checklist, which is kind of the same concept. So go ahead. Sorry.

Erin Melvin 12:31
Yeah, no, and I like that, because there’s so many different ways. I saw that as a question that came up in the first session, you know, like, how do you assess, and I think that often sort of depends on what the skill is and what the organization looks like, and what the staffing staffing is to get you to do that. But one of the clients that I work with is, is industry and safety. And basically if you if you pick up a chainsaw, you have to take this kind of thing as chainsaw safety, right? is really important. So they went through and created a really like complex competency models. But on top of that, they created a train the trainer and train the assessor program as well. So that as they’re building up this session for the learners, they also built on top of that it was it was often a progressive. So if I went here, that I can also become an assessor. And so now that I know that all my assessors are standardized to go along with this standardized set. And that’s important. Because what does assessment look like if you leave that sometimes up to and this is, again, as an organizational conversation? That’s a little bit outside of the the l&d product, but it’s part of the package is, are we are we aligned on assessment because one manage, because one of the things that they were talking about the client was, you know, just really honest, there’s like this favoritism or there is, you know, there’s bias in these kinds of things. And if we want to have standardization, which is a big part of competency training, is, is to have standardized assessment as well. And so they they actually ran their assessors through, they built a program and ran them through a competency training program to become assessors so that they could assess the employees on their competencies.

Unknown Speaker 14:18
I hope that makes sense. I,

Rachel Weiss 14:20
I think that the observation and checklist piece is really key to because then we’re looking at not just, you know, what is this competency look like? Or what it you know, someone who’s good at conflict management can do XY and Z. But how does that fit within what we want for our motive success, you know, and so I think here, you know, if we’re Eric’s talking about strict clinical procedures, that’s obviously different than, you know, something maybe a touch fuzzy or like, influencing up or, you know, those types of things. But one of the, one of the, one of the mantras that I had to start repeating over and over again, which is what you do with the mantra, when I got here was really that idea that, that this is workplace learning, like we’re, yes, it’s cool to learn, like healthcare is cool, it’s cool to learn about it, I love knowing these things. That actually is not what we’re here to do. We’re not learning for fun. You know, like, when you go to a university, and you’re just trying to figure things out, you’re learning, you’re here to do a specific job. And the training that we’re giving you is preparing you with the right skills, focusing on the right competencies to do that job. And so everything that we do in that learning space and learning world needs to really connect back to how do I do this at my job? And I think assessments have to match that. But I like that idea of the observation and checklist for competencies as well, because then it’s not just a generic, like, do you know recognize conflict, you have a good attitude about it, you know, but it is specific to what we’re trying to drive success here in your role, as well as then being able to know Okay, what does this competency look like, then for the next role that I want to get to if I want to get there, I understand the conflict management is important. But what do we where do we need to go from here to here to get to that next space? Mm hmm. That specific competency,

Erin Melvin 16:19
right. And I think that’s something like, again, through the technology perspective, like our technology allows you to build your own skills and attach different types of your description to those scales. So competency framework is attached to a scale. So you can have multiple frameworks with multiple different scales. And I’ve seen that in sort of very large organizations where they have very different teams doing different things, or the leadership versus technical sort of, or core versus technical, they might just want to assess that differently. So you can set up a different type of scale, whether that’s competent, competent with supervision or not competent. So that is sort of the default to to language that suits that HR or that organization. And that allows that to happen. And then that also that idea of being able to upload evidence. And so I think, Rachel, you’re saying earlier, like take a picture, take a video. So again, like I’m using a chainsaw, which I don’t know how to use. But if I was using a chainsaw, like that’s not something I could do in the office with a computer, right? That’s, that’s the thing, I’m out side. And but I can use my phone or get somebody else to video how I do that particular technique. And then I can upload that and then that could be tied as evidence and say, Look, you did x y&z perfectly, therefore is competent. And that becomes part of the larger record of learning. And that is what technology allows us to do these days, it’s so much easier to have images have video and have that is evidence.

Rachel Weiss 17:52
I love using the word evidence to I think that’s really great, like, not not just assessing you to see where you fall, but like I were showing, instead, yes, I can master this competency, right, I hit the proficiency level where you need me to be I like that.

Erin Melvin 18:07
Yeah, and I think something for the for the for the fuzzier areas, because I like that, too, is I was doing a session earlier this year on adaptive learning. And this idea of using a different type of activity within the LM s that allows you to branch. And that means so you’ve got so like I work in technology. So we’ve got a support team, and we’re always like on the phone, talking to clients. And so you could walk a new person through different scenarios. So, client asked this, and your answer is x. And then you’ve got three choices, and then you start to follow a story. And then that whole piece can be also part of the either the evidence or the conversation. And so at the end of the day, you can look at the results of this and go, No, I need to do some more training with this person, that could be part of the course, that leads them to a competency that leads them to the conversation. So I might set up a course that says, here’s, here’s some training, here’s an adaptive exercise, so I can see, you know, where you’re hitting it, and then I’m going to set up an appointment with you to discuss that. And then we’re going to maybe loop back or continue. And now we’ve got deeper learning in that. And I like that because the adaptive piece of it gives them the choice to make mistakes. And the idea of writing good at adaptive learning, I get another sort of larger piece to build, but it’s about variations of incorrectness. So it’s not that way, like you often see me in sort of, like, you know, check the box kind of things. It’s like, Ooh, that could be right, or that’s pretty. They’re all look right. So you have to make a decision, because life is like that we’re making multiple, many decisions as we go along. And so on the softer financial skills, can you self correct out of that? Or did you make the wrong decision from the beginning? And and like, where do you go from there. And I think that’s a really nice tool in the builds of the automation of a competency, that can lead you to a space of having a good conversation or a good assessment. And that’s something that’s built into the technology and that I’m seeing more and more people in sort of E learning building branching scenarios, because it provides this choice, it was going back to that idea of we want employees to think, by themselves and make those decisions. And so we can set them up the multiple choice exam is is great, fast, easy, but it doesn’t necessarily get into the deeper decision making and the continuous decision making process. Whereas adaptive learning might get you there. And

Rachel Weiss 20:53
to pile on to that is, you know, realistic consequences. So you make the choice, you know, maybe you made an okay choice, or there’s a great choice, there’s a bad choice. But what happens from here And to your point, as we’re branching out, you know, okay, now you you made an okay, choice, here’s the consequence of that. Now what you know, that have this this effect, and that’s, to me, the branching scenarios are really that’s the true value of them is to be able to take it down the line to say, Okay, well, then what would happen? Well, then what would happen, you know, and so, because I have seen a lot of branching scenarios where, you know, someone picks an answer, it’s kind of like, nope, no, didn’t answer their question. Try again. It’s like, okay, but what if that is what I had said, like, why would I expect on the other side, where where is my learning opportunity? How do I know where I’m going to get better? Where I missing this piece of the competency? Whatever it is, you know, how am I going to know that if I don’t have that structured feedback? So to me, that’s one of the most important things I love branching scenarios. Absolutely love them. And I think learners tend to really enjoy them too. Hello, as they prove that kind of real world value. Exactly what they’re experiencing.

Erin Melvin 22:05
Yeah, yeah, the consequences, everything. So if you get into that, and you like, the client hangs up angrily, you’re like, Oh, boy. But I go back to try that again.

That’s direct learning, I think for it’s like low risk direct learning for the for the learner, because they’re like, oh, boy, that’s really stung. But I’m still learning. So I’m okay. Just an exercise.

Rachel Weiss 22:29
Absolutely. I really like what Jonathan is talking about here to this idea of uploading something in the assessor watching it and commenting on what they observe. We’re just getting started with stuff like that. both video and even just like a, you know, giving a scenario. And for example, we have a messaging component to the business. So having, you know, saying, okay, here’s what someone messaged in, what would you message back and being able, within the technology to come comments specifically? So, you know, in being able to highlight and say, like, you know, have you thought about the implications of, of this word? Or, you know, like, do you think that this would this makes sense, the way that we’ve talked about it, whatever it is, but being able to really pinpoint in that moment, what it is, you know, I definitely understand privacy nightmare, for sure. I work in healthcare right now. So I absolutely understand that concept. And I’m always trying to find creative ways around it, you know, to ultimately get to a point where, like, we can distill the activity and the assessment and the feedback to the the ultimate goal to the ultimate success. What are those competencies that we’re really trying to drive here and, and make incremental movement on? Mm hmm.

Toddi Norum 23:50
Yeah, or less that you guys have taken this to a different, like a deeper level conversation with respect to technology, which is really the instructional design piece of this. And I, I actually have participated in doing instructional design pieces in the past where we were really focused on creating emotional intelligence with respect to sales teams, folks that are dealing with customers on a daily basis. And rather than doing a branching scenario, we did present like kind of a scenario at the beginning. And then we have like a devil on the shoulder type of thing with the rollovers where you would, you know, start to select the answer. And as she rolled over that hot spot, it would say, yes, but is that the exact best answers at the best solution? And, again, like you have 44 different possible answers, and maybe none of them were exactly right. But we are the instructional design piece of that developed, so that we were really kind of promoting that whole emotional intelligence.

So I mean, and you know, it’s like, I didn’t realize at the time that I was doing that type of thing. But I really, you know, it’s exciting before you talk about this translation of competency that way, I have to stop Yeah.

Why I was in the other spot to begin with,

Unknown Speaker 25:07
yeah.

Toddi Norum 25:10
enablement of, you know, that type of situation, where you can really prompt someone to start thinking and interacting, even with a piece of software on an lm s, is just, it’s great. I mean, you know, that I’m just super excited

to have been hosting a couple cool and center keras has has been my experience that not every competency equals training, and it gets really super true. How do you make that determination and communicate it to stakeholders, because obviously, the stakeholders are helping us determine what that learning cap is going to look like, for every competency? I’ll let you guys answer that.

Rachel Weiss 25:51
That’s a good question. Because you know it, in my mind, it’s going back to that the top, the top goals and the top success measures in that moment for the business because, you know, I could probably map out 50 things, you know, that we mean, whatnot. Additionally, I think that I agree that not every competency needs, like, you know, here’s our conflict management course, and here is our influencer course. And here’s our talk, you know, communicating with stakeholders course, like, so totally agree that it’s not necessarily like a one to one to one all of the time. But I would say that if it is, if it’s a competency, that, that we’re targeting, and that we’re saying is important, I would have like sprinkling of this without with it, and you know, it’s very rare. In my mind, I try to keep it very Where, where, where one course is literally just like all only that, because I really like to push scaffolding. And I think that with learning paths, you can do that, right? Like you can do the beginning courses will just be focused on that. But then as you get into those higher level things, it’s so rare that, you know,

my my conflict management won’t always won’t won’t also have to do with like word choice or tone or

de escalation techniques, you know, whatever it is that there are different pieces that kind of fit through there. And so, for me, Cara in this, in this context, scaffolding is thinking about the way that we introduce and supplement content so that, you know, I want to get you up here, the end result is that you’ve got, you know, these five competencies and you’re strong in them. So I’m going to pick the maybe the most important one, maybe the most difficult one, maybe the easiest one, you know, depending on the way that I’m I’m structuring my program, I’m going to pick something that we can really anchor on to and start with. But then as we’re moving through that learning path, or just kind of throwing in, you know, little pieces here and there from other stuff, so that by the time it gets to the the top, it’s not even necessarily clear, like, oh, wow, I was on a step ladder, the whole time moving up above, I thought I was just going straight. But I was actually, you know, these pieces were getting built in. And it’s something from an instructional design standpoint that I’ve had to push home with my team, which who right now is not super strong with instructional design, you know, best practices and principles. And so talking about the fact that like, if you have in this, you know, you have this, this is a day three activity we’re doing, like, yes, the biggest focus on assessment, and all of this should be this content, but throw innocent, you know, a piece of the scenario from what we talked about yesterday, throw in these things, so that he can start thinking about them, even sometimes throw in something we’re going to see in the future, they may look at it now and say, I don’t know what I’m going to do with that. But then when we’re there tomorrow, we say, Hey, remember yesterday, when so and so whatever, you know. So to me, scaffolding is really just that the building blocks within the instructional design, and within the program itself, that just provide a very easy, as long as you’re you know, doesn’t mean the work is easy, but an easy path to follow, to move yourself upward with your knowledge or skills. And I think that’s to earth shattering thing, it’s pretty common.

Erin Melvin 29:19
And I think in relationship to that the, you know, breaking down the competency framework, and I was saying earlier, like, you might have a parent competency that has children competencies, it’s hard to break tasks down sometimes. And I am I’ve been someone introduced the word smaller fi to me while ago, that was a really good word. Because sometimes, if you’re looking at kind of a big skill that has to be taken on, I think it sort of scaffolding is just like, if they’re absolutely not competent in that at all, then we have to go down to the sort of the small to smaller Fiat, and start somewhere. And that’s where I see a lot of people building in skills into their competency framework that might actually have five levels. And instead of sort of a three level, like competent, not competent, competent with supervision, but scales, because they know that that’s very difficult skill. And that between now in six months or a year, and allows you to build those sort of smart goals around it. So it’s like, okay, in six months, when we have our review, I’d like to move you up to in that scale. And then we’ll look at that. And then we can add some more training on the field work or whatever it is to make that happen. And then in another six months, we can move you up another two on that scale. So it’s not all things are sort of black and white. And that’s the thing with competencies is that it’s it’s not like you did it once, right? But can you do it five times on your own correctly, this is something that we’re building into the movement, which I which is why I think that competency training, the focus on competency is very concrete, long term lasting knowledge that the person learns other than just going through through video in a in a multiple choice quiz, which is, you know, standard learning, but it doesn’t always get into the body. And so the more that you do it, and the longer term vision it is. And so the scaffolding could also be that is where you’re starting at a lower level, and you’re just adding more material so that you can get into that parent competency. And then you can start again. And as Rachel was saying, I like this idea is that while you’re building this, they’re also rarely like perfectly siloed. So while I’m while I’m getting better at this competency, I’m also getting better at these other three competencies, and I’m lifting the whole piece up a little bit. And I see that pretty regularly.

Rachel Weiss 31:40
Yeah, thank you. And so to speak to ID making competency, I think, let me know, I gotta read.

So yes, ultimately, so if I if if I’m if I said ideas, what makes competency, I apologize, that is not what I meant. It was really more actually around what Aaron was just saying in terms of, of the evaluation piece of it, you know, of designing the content in such a way that you’re allowing people to show their success of mastering that competency. So I think that, I think basically, yes, I think to what, what Todd is saying, you know, that that focusing on how the instructional design framework aligns to building and measuring those competencies? Because really, if you you know, measuring it is what we’re really looking for here, right? Like is that’s the ultimate is just, where are you if I’m expecting you at the level you’re at, right now, if I’m expecting you’re proficient in this competency, how do I know that that’s true? How do you show it to me? And if not, what do I do to get you there? Are you in the right place? You know,

Toddi Norum 32:47
I mean, from like, a practical standpoint, so a lot of folks on here know that I used to be an old army trainer. So, you know, in the, in the army with, you know, the trade off standards that they use, everything is built on, you know, the enabling learning objective, which might be starting at it, turning on something, you know, pushing the on button and getting something powered up, you know, all the way up to being able to, you know, manipulate a hand controller to be able to, you know, type a command in the keyboard and get a response and paying back, you know, building up to a terminal learning objectives. And this goes back to literally, you know, instructional design, and, you know, don’t let anyone on one, but building on that, but then taking that framework of demonstration of, you know, not even just necessarily competencies, which is skills, and someone should perform, to be able to do that final thing. You know, and that translates, you know, kind of in a practical fashion. And I remember, I used to work with a lot of Boeing, PhDs in instructional design, it’s kind of where I got a lot of my learning from was working with them. And somebody explained it to me once and they said, You know, I mean, how do you make a cake? And, and so they went through the whole step. So, you know, basically learning how to separate in a, you know, how to do the stirring, I mean, in the end, we, you know, we broke everything down. And it’s like, after, you know, this is the way back, you know, when I first started into this field, it was like, Oh, I get it now, you know, and so I can certainly see how the frameworks that we built for instructional design or in curriculums, you know, that translate maybe into our electronic deliveries, can be very closely aligned to how we’re building out our competencies and looking for the pieces that we’re building on. That awful stuff. Stuff. This is really fun topic, actually, we’re all geeky.

Unknown Speaker 34:38
Sorry, about that.

Toddi Norum 34:42
We recall. So it is interesting. So I, Aaron, I know, you do a lot of work with translating, you know, competency modeling job architectures, into lifelong learning management systems, I will tell you, in my own organization, I think we dropped off the call, obviously, fair was on here before obby has done like this freaking amazing job and working with our engineering working groups, our stakeholders, to build out core competencies for the engineering groups, you know, really starting with basically writing requirements, you know, looking at things like risk analysis, you know, the things that have been outlined, by, you know, the management, in our, in your plans, that what they want to see full competencies for the, you know, engineers across all of our product lines, and he’s done, just a tremendous job, we roll this stuff out. And we do a lot of reporting on that, you know, like, where people are in terms of completion of units, you know, if they’ve taken the instructor led courses, you know, where they are there attract the champions that we actually really face and this this really super, like, the core competencies and and job architecture question is, our particular piece of software that we use for our lm s, does not allow us to build in very finite details on competencies or job architecture, things like job families. Yeah, I mean, like, how do you get around some of the technology blockers that are out there? During the bottlenecks I like, my lemon Sunday?

Erin Melvin 36:15
Yeah. And that’s something that, yeah, so say at the beginning, is when you’re planning if this is something that you’re starting, know, your tech know what you have in house before you get going, and understand that

a lot of technologies do a lot of great things, but none of them do everything kind of thing in that sense that, to know that. And the idea of, you know, being a technologist and understanding, like I said earlier, some technologies are open source, and you can work with, you know, the provider vendor to build out further features for that. And some of them might be proprietary, in which case, you’re probably in the box, and you may have to either add other technologies into your stack, and then you have to think about integrating them. So the technology conversation is a huge part of the pre planning of this whole item.

Yeah, so the

Toddi Norum 37:14
breakdown structure, which I can’t actually can only get into my lm s by loading it up in the CSV, and the way that our systems talk to each other right now. And I think this is true for a lot of people, you know, they don’t always speak to each other the way they should, the connectors don’t always work in a day, API calls don’t always work the way they’re supposed to. And so you end up doing a lot of really manual tasks, you know, to make these things as robust as they could possibly be. And I, you know, I wonder sometimes I’m like, Okay, this is 2019, you know, like, why, why can’t this be a little more integrated, or a little easier to, you know, basically say, Okay, this is our really cool job architecture that we put together over here, and competencies and makeup, every single job role, you know, including, you know, maybe even data like salary and like the expected growth, I mean, you know, we could we could do all kinds of forecasting and these things, and then translating that to our technology. So that, like, not even just our own message, but our HR SS and our talent acquisition software, and so has, you know, like that insight into, okay, well, this is, you know, the number of folks that we’re going to be meeting that require this core competency. There, maybe there’s some automation that can happen around that I look at it.

Erin Melvin 38:29
Yeah, and I think it’s, yeah, it’s really important. So I always keep going back to this planning piece, because I think that I see people sort of get into halfway through, and they have these really great ideas, and I agree with them. But the technology that we provide, may not reach that space, I think the one that we do is quite robust. But it’s not, as I said earlier, it has HR components, but it’s not an HR system. And so people who are going to use it, enterprise learning management system, probably already have an HR system as well. And so then it becomes the like, do they talk to each other? Maybe, maybe not, but then can we pull that data down? And then you starting to work with data analysts who can who can like pull it together? And then and have that out where reporting solutions sort of follows with the learning management system? Which is why I try to get my clients to try and use that as much as possible, because you can get a lot out there. But it’s not currently tapping into other systems, which is, which is ideal. That’s, that’s that we might be reaching into that situation. But

Unknown Speaker 39:37
yeah, it’s a good call up.

Toddi Norum 39:39
Oh, yeah. I was starting to say here, I’m hearing people are involved in this. Yes.

Rachel Weiss 39:47
Yeah, I was just gonna say it’s a good call out, you know, that preparation piece of knowing your technology, because either it’s going to tell you you need different technology, or it’s going to tell you what your parameters are, because it can be encrypted D motivating to do all of this exciting work, and then realize, Oh, my gosh, we could have something so amazing. And it’s not going to happen, because we can’t we can’t leverage what we have right now to make it happen. And I’ve been in that situation before, it’s really difficult. And it’s hard to keep everybody else motivated them to keep moving forward when they feel like they’ve seen you know how amazing something could be and then we can’t do that. So totally agree with the planning either. Do you have the ability to do what to find? What will meet your needs? If not, then how can you work within what you have?

Erin Melvin 40:33
And related to the technology in house is the people seek the technology. And so this is something else like so I was saying, like getting your competency consultant and your technology consultant. But if you do kind of a SWOT analysis or something like that the beginning of in your planning, you’re like, Do I have the human resources on my team, to build, manage maintain my competency framework. And I really want to encourage people to think about that as they move in. Because like I said, it’s it’s a long view project. It’s a worthwhile project, but it requires resources. And for this to succeed, we need to have the right people in there working on it. And I find that a lot of people that I work with who are learning management, you know, administrators either their subject matter experts in that field, but maybe not technologists, they might be a competency expert or HR person, but they’re not a tech, like so there’s quite often one piece missing. And so that’s actually something that you have to think about is lifting up is like, is this person capable of managing this technology to? So those are part of the plan as you get going, and then you can learn those skills. I obviously don’t think it’s difficult, because that’s my day to day job. But it’s not easy for people who are coming in from a completely different space. And it requires training to make them sort of up and running themselves with the competencies to run a competency program.

Unknown Speaker 42:05
Right? Yeah.

Toddi Norum 42:08
Yeah, I mean, really interesting, because as I’m watching my own organization go through this. You know, I think that’s a very valuable, valuable lesson that we have learned is that we need to be staffed up in order to support this work. Yeah, you know, we’re in that process right now. And I’m, you know, I’m excited to see it, because I think that, you know, we’re going to make more progress now that we have the right people on the team. But boy, you tend to see this. I mean, and coming into this, you know, wasn’t my native area by any means. And I really just kind of learn more about it. But, you know, understanding how this touches LNG, how it touches HR, how it touches, acquisition for talent, and you know, how that gets rolled out. And you know, who supports it? And the messaging that goes up and down? And it’s like, no, I had no clue how incredibly complex so you could be speaking about the weeks?

Erin Melvin 43:01
I think so. Yeah.

Toddi Norum 43:02
Yeah. Very cool. I’m looking to see if we have any other questions in the question queue.

Rachel Weiss 43:09
I’m just enjoying pointy quickie fun. That’s going to be my new phrase.

Unknown Speaker 43:14
A lot of pointed, Clichy fun.

Toddi Norum 43:18
So yeah, that’s is one thing about this group, by the way, we have some ism.

Erin Melvin 43:25
isms.

Toddi Norum 43:27
But they’re fun group. And, and I mean, like people in the chat, they’re super engaged, which is really awesome. Because occasionally we get diversions and just our topics and things like that, which is fun, too. It’s been a really great camaraderie of folks. And so that’s, you know, to me, that’s the real value of the group that we have here. And I, as we’re talking about this, we’re coming up on five minute mark. Like, I would love to have you guys come back and speak more about this, because I think we could just keep going.

Rachel Weiss 43:57
What I really like is that it is an organic content station, you know, I mean, we definitely have the the points that we want to hit, and we’ve got a general idea of where we’re going. But there have been so many great comments that have kind of, you know, sent us out in different directions and questions that I just really liked that organic conversation. So it’s it’s good to have a group that’s invested and interested and knowledgeable to know, you know, how to interact that way.

Toddi Norum 44:21
Right? Exactly. Just like it when it comes in here to about, you know, assessing frontline workers versus knowledge workers. And there there’s a topic we could dive into the next couple hours as well. You know, I’m looking at the core competencies for delineating you know, what a frontline worker who Yeah, while you know, how do we determine what they actually need to know or need to be able to demonstrate, again, that same thing of not knowing and doing might be two different things. And we move those assessments and really dive into maybe taking an example of someone who’s a frontline worker versus a knowledge worker, and how do we determine what they really need you to know. You know, I mean, to me that that’s what Dr. Karthik Karen was talking about

Unknown Speaker 45:04
earlier. That assessment.

Unknown Speaker 45:07
Yeah.

Toddi Norum 45:09
So super cool. So anything else? Because I’m sitting here chatting, but I’m, like, I’m loving hearing what you have to say. Any any final thoughts on this? before we sign off?

Rachel Weiss 45:19
My my final thought would just be that, you know, there are, there are always trends, right, and that in business and l&d and all of these different things. And I think that this is, like I said at the beginning competency models aren’t new. It’s not like it’s a 2010 thing. But I think the value that it brings, and just the connection that it brings to the organization and the

the business like success model is really key. And that’s I think, where people are getting, are figuring it out now. And so I love that there are so many different businesses and so many different people within the community just kind of of all wrestling with the same issues. Maybe the business looks different, maybe the workforce looks different. But at its core, it’s still How do we know what makes a person successful? How do we know it’s going to drive the business forward, that drive the people forward, continue to develop and make it a place where not only do we get really good work done, but we have people who really enjoy doing the work and want to continue along the path with us.

Toddi Norum 46:26
That’s the point to develop people. I mean, that that’s maybe one of the things we need to think about to you know, how do we use these models to develop people, as they, you know, either are fit to do the work or have a desire?

Rachel Weiss 46:38
Yeah, it goes hand in hand for me that that the business benefit and the personal.

Erin Melvin 46:43
Mm hmm. And I think that also brings l&d sort of back into the organization. I think sometimes l&d kind of floats. If people like, What are you guys doing over there? often happens, right? And they kind of can float away. They’re like, I want to build this because they love doing what they’re doing. But the competency as was saying earlier, this is a backbone for your organization. And so when you got l&d tapped into that, and HR tapped into that you’re all sort of coming off of these core competencies, and that makes what l&d doing, if that’s a strong connection more meaningful, and I think l&d supports the competencies, and the competencies are that are blind to the organization, not to l&d. l&d is work supports that to do what Rachel saying is build the organization and the people who work there to push the business goals forward. That’s where it all comes down to so it’s got business value, and it’s got value for the employees. And it’s a really great model to work on. But I think people, people are a little bit nervous at the beginning. Because this work. It’s it’s a it’s a project and it should be managed as such, but I think that it brings so much more value to

sometimes little bit boring compliance training kind of thing. You know, like, Oh, really? Do I have to do this? Again, I’m an LED. That’s what I do. But the competency brings it back to the employee and makes it personal. And take something.

Rachel Weiss 48:14
Yeah, it’s not just what can I do for the business? You know, it’s how am I benefiting from this as well, like there were so I think our, our interpersonal and business, and all of that is just so intertwined at this point that, you know, going to work, I absolutely want to have a really strong impact on the business. But I also kind of want to use it as a way to make myself a better person to, yeah, and it can be it does, it’s not mutually exclusive, it can absolutely work in tandem.

Toddi Norum 48:41
I’m always kind of jealous when I see what the engineers get to do as part of

my own organization, I think we’ve done a really good job of translating the goals of the business through there, and you’re planning down to what we actually do in l&d. Hi, so I’m thumbs up to them, for sure, the whole.

So I guess we’re at the top of the hour, this has been super fun. And I just want to, like, talk forever on this. So But please, consider coming back. Um, the other thing too, is put your contact information if you would, in the chat box, so that you know, folks know how to reach out to you. You know, I don’t know how much consulting you might do in this area. But that’s totally fair to put that out there and say people can contact you. So the big part of what we do and to VC is we make a lot of good referrals to each other. You know, and if you’re not part of our, our Slack channel, I can send you a link on that to our Slack channel is a space where we have multiple channels where we can reach out to others and ask for help, you know,

all kinds of cool stuff. Wonderful. I would love to be Yeah, same here because we really would love to have you engage some more and keep the conversation going.

And sign off and if

you’re joining me I’m finally glad I got my sound back and haven’t dropped up one today.

Erin Melvin 50:00
care Bye Bye. Have a good day. Bye. Thank you.

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